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In this episode, you will learn about the latest in biological medicine in the treatment of complex, chronic illnesses.

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About My Guest

My guest for this episode is Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt.  Dietrich Klinghardt, MD, PhD studied medicine and psychology in Freiburg, Germany, completing his PhD on the involvement of the autonomic nervous system in autoimmune disorders. Early in his career he became interested in the sequelae of chronic toxicity (especially lead, mercury, environmental pollutants, and electromagnetic fields) for the course of illness.  While working in India, Dr. Klinghardt encountered Eastern concepts of disease etiology and blended them with his Western training. This laid the foundation for his 5-level system of Integrative Medicine. In the US, he spent three years as a full-time emergency physician before becoming Medical Director of the Santa Fe Pain Centre.  Increasingly aware of the limitations of conventional medicine when dealing with chronic conditions, he trained in Ericksonian hypnotherapy and began to include body-oriented psychotherapeutic and counseling approaches in his work, along with neural therapy, mesotherapy injection techniques, and Applied PsychoNeurobiology.  Dr. Klinghardt has contributed significantly to the understanding of metal toxicity and its connection with chronic infections, illness, and pain. He has been instrumental in advancing various fields within biological medicine: non-invasive pain management, injection techniques for pain and orthopedic dysfunction, anti-aging medicine, toxicology, pediatrics (neuro-developmental disorders), energy psychology, biological dentistry, and others.  He developed Autonomic Response Testing, a comprehensive evaluation system that has helped many practitioners to become accomplished holistic physicians.  He founded Sophia Health Institute in 2012 and is actively involved in patient care at his clinic.

Key Takeaways

  • What are the primary drivers of autoimmunity?
  • What is a rope worm?
  • What is the role of MARCoNS in chronic illness?
  • How can the microbiome be optimized?
  • What is the role of KPU/HPU in a treatment protocol?
  • How does the vagus nerve impact healing?
  • What is the role of limbic system impairment in health recovery?
  • What is the primary driver for oxalates?
  • How might salicylate and phenolic intolerances be neutralized?
  • How is sulfate deficiency addressed in a patient that cannot tolerate sulphur compounds?
  • What is the fate of the human race?

Connect With My Guest


Interview Date

September 13, 2020 


Transcript Disclaimer: Transcripts are intended to provide optimized access to information contained in the podcast.  They are not a full replacement for the discussion.  Timestamps are provided to facilitate finding portions of the conversation.  Errors and omissions may be present as the transcript is not created by someone familiar with the topics being discussed.  Please Contact Me with any corrections.   

[00:00:01.00] Welcome to BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts, empowering your better health. And now, here's Scott, your Better Health Guy.

[00:00:14.05] The content of this show is for informational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any illness or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or as information to facilitate self-treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health-related decisions with your own personal medical authority.

[00:00:34.26] Scott: Hello everyone, and welcome to episode number 128 of the BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts series. Today's guest is Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, and the topic of the show is Klinghardt Conversations 4. This is the continuation of our discussion from episode 127, which spanned two days. To hear Dr. Klinghardt's bio and the first part of this discussion, I recommend listening to episode 127 first.  And now, my fourth interview with Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt.

Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 128; our conversation with Dr. Klinghardt yesterday was so full of information. And to really finish covering the topics we originally planned, we decided to split our discussion into two days, two episodes. So if you've not listened to episode 127 first, that's where I would recommend starting.

I’ve had my flaxseed, my chlorella, my silica, my glycine this morning, so we are ready to get started. And as you've often said, Dr. Klinghardt, thank you for this brand new morning, thank you for this beautiful day, and thank you for being here again to share more of your knowledge and your life-changing work.

[00:01:44.02] Dr. Klinghardt: Thank you, Scott.

[00:01:46.08] Scott: A listener asked about autoimmunity, and we touched on this a little bit yesterday. And their question was, how much does Lyme disease and the related microbes contribute to it? I remember being at a conference with you in Amsterdam four years or so ago, and the question came up to the panel: Do we see autoimmunity in absence of microbes that are persisting in the body? And at that time, their response was no, that autoimmunity is generally the body's best attempt to protect us from some pathogen.

So I’m interested in your thoughts. Is it more important to kill the bug, to modulate the immune response? And what role do toxins play in autoimmunity? Are they key drivers? What's more critical, the bugs, the toxins, or both?

[00:02:31.09] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. So first of all, to establish myself as an authority. I was one of the early docs who did this doctoral thesis on autoimmune diseases. And very early on, I was led into the big role that the autonomic nervous system has in there, which hardly anybody mentions here. That the T-cells and B-cells that are autoreactive in an autoimmune disease are still under control of the autonomic nervous system. 

So the autonomic nervous system has nerve endings in the inner lining of the all the blood vessels. And transports and sheds neurotransmitters; there are over 90 neuroactive substances that the autonomic nervous system puts into the bloodstream. And everybody has been looking until that was only solved like 15 years ago, okay. If there is a presynaptic knob in the inner lining of the blood vessels that excretes neurotransmitters as if there was a postsynaptic knob receiving this.

And so they were looking for where is the postsynaptic knob, and it's actually in the cell wall of the T-cells and the B-cells and the macrophages. So they all have receptors for the neurotransmitters excreted into our system by the autonomic nervous system. So the cells do not operate on their own; they get strict orders, they come from above, and that's orchestrated not separable from the autonomic nervous system. So I like to say that because that's not generally known here.

Then, of course, you know, and I know for me teaching Neural therapy. Neural therapy is a treatment of the autonomic nervous system. That a single scar in the body from a surgery or a trauma can create abnormal electric currents that are distorted. Many of the fibers of the autonomic nervous system are not protected by myelin sheaths. So any electric change, any electric current is picked up, transported 80 percent of the autonomic nervous system, whether it's sympathetic or parasympathetic, eighty percent, the nerve signals are going up to the brain, or only 20 percent are going down.

So a scar, an infected tooth, the root canal, and a piercing, a tattoo can send signals in the autonomic nervous system up to the hypothalamus. It's translated into down going signals, and they're the ones that control the cells of the immune system, which are involved in autoimmune disease. So that is a forgotten thing I’d like to put out here in the beginning, that we have a treatment for that. But you can use procaine injections, that's what I’m teaching.

And you can use microcurrent to reset the scars and things, but very often it involves extracting a tooth. It may involve doing some small surgical thing. Sometimes, scars keep creating abnormal currents because there is from the time of the surgery, there are metals embedded in it, and then the scar needs to be excised surgically.

We connect and we see miracles with that in autoimmune disease. So I put that at the beginning because the US is the only country where there's completely, that knowledge has disappeared somewhere in the crevices of the medical literature. And so Vera Stejskal was one of my mentors; she was the leading neurotoxicologist in Europe, first at the Karolinska Institute, that's where the Nobel Prize comes from and then later somewhere else.

But she established, and she published over 20 papers in that regard. For her, it was the toxic metals. So the cells, our own body cells, let's say you take all the immune disease of the thyroid. So the thyroid cells, the thyroid hormone-producing cells and the thyroid, they're spiked like all the cells in our body on the outside with sulfhydryl groups.

And there is a group of metals they're called sulfhydryl-affinitive metals, that's lead, mercury, cadmium, all the nasty stuff. But also zinc and copper and some of the good things. And so the moment a toxic metal attaches to these receptors, and those attachments are very solid, very firm. The cells of the immune system that travel by that cell recognize that something is not right with the cell. And then, may choose to attack it.

And then the way it goes in the body, one cell detects another cell, it sends a signal to all the other cells, and so you get a massive attack on that body tissue. That's one of the very well documented mechanisms of autoimmunity, and in this case, involves a particular set of toxins. The other one is the hapten idea that if a cell is infected with a particular bug that lives inside the cell such as like in Lyme disease, then the cellular immune system has a job to dock onto the cell and either to kill the infected cell or to release cytokines into the cell that kill the bugs.

And that process can also go wrong, so that's the other option that the or the immunity can be caused, but equally by infections, as well as by toxins. And so our treatment for autoimmune diseases has been for me for the last 45 years, first of all, to look at every possible toxin that could be in the body. And as you know, we developed a testing system, Autonomic Response Testing, where we can actually locally test over each organ what toxins are in there.

As long as we have the toxin to test for, it needs to be the same toxin that's in the body that we test outside the body. And so we can very reliably with ART figure out if your thyroid has stored glyphosate or has stored aluminum, it has stored mercury or lead. Or dental toxins or snot from the nose that runs down the lymphatics.

So we can establish that and then establish detox programs. That’s always step number one, and whenever a tissue has become toxic, the immune system loses its vigilance, its smartness in the area, and microbes tend to settle in the areas and become toxic. And so step B is to look for Lyme and the associated infections and to look for the viruses; the Herpesviruses or the Coronaviruses.

Or there are an unlimited number of things we could test for, and the one thing that brings peace to my mind is there are really only three treatments for the infections. There's antibacterial, there are antifungals, and there are antivirals, there's really nothing else. And so rather than, recently, because of the plethora of infections that we find in people, I tend to, depending on the time that patient has booked me for.

If only got five minutes left, instead of looking through 20,000 parasites and the different types of mold and different kinds of Lyme disease, Babesia, Bartonella, Coxiela, I simply test treatment modalities because that's easier. I forgot the anti-parasitic, so there are four classes of drugs. And so yes, so with autoimmune disease, if you do the combination of finding out the triggers in the autonomic nervous system, plus detoxing, plus treating infections. Usually, you succeed in calming the illness down and getting on top of it.

One of the biggest triggers we have here the system in my teaching of the seven factors that cause illness, and one of the big ones on autoimmune disease, of course, is the Electrosmog. So people need to have meticulous hygiene of the Electrosmog. At nighttime, all the fuses for the house need to be out; they're not allowed to have Wi-Fi in the house.

That only wired connections to the computers. And it's not that difficult to do, it's manageable, and it's not that expensive. Sometimes we need to do the sleep sanctuary and covering the whole house, turning the whole house into a faraday cage depending on where people live.

[00:11:46.20] Scott: Beautiful. It's been more than six years since you had Alex Volinsky present on rope worms at one of your conferences. And in that time, it doesn't seem like there's any tremendously new understanding around what rope worm actually is. So what are your current thoughts on whether it is a parasite, whether it is a biofilm community, and how do you approach helping the body to excrete them?

[00:12:11.03] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. So you probably remember also that Alex was a professor or still is a professor in Miami. And he was badly beaten up for doing this research, threatened his job. And so that's why it went quiet. I just want to make the point. It didn't go quiet because it's not a relevant issue, or the issue has changed in severity.

It went quiet because the one courageous man that was able to speak up on it was almost taken down. And so, many of us who were sort of honest here got scared and got more quiet about it. So secondly, already in his time, he spent whatever sixty thousand dollars on doing genomic analysis, and it was pretty clear that the rope worm is a composite of different creatures with different kinds of sets of genes that was very clear.

And so, however, it behaved as if it was one organism. The gas propulsion that it does and certain characteristics of it were very clearly characteristic of one organism. And so I concluded that is yes, it is a biofilm. It's a community of different bugs that communicate on a very high level with each other. And that in order to survive, in order to develop, they're acting as one organism. And has that heads like bulb-like head structure.

It's very clear; it behaves like an organism. And so I think what Alex observed was a really new thing in biology that should have been a revolution, sort of that higher organism. We're watching higher organisms develop from mono-cellular, little bugs, bacteria, and fungi getting together, creating a structure, or working with our body actually to help them create a structure. And in that structure, they're evolving to actually become a multicellular organism. So I think it's a revolution that we were watching there, and then, of course, that was not a welcome revolution.

Now in terms of diagnosing, we have a DVD with the frequencies for testing it. And so we find it a lot. And then, the problem with treatment was that the Gubarev protocols developed by Alex’ Russian mentor. There were four very decisive protocols that were beautiful. But in the American population, it was often the case that people seem to excrete this creature at some stage of the protocol treatment.

But then the next time you looked over your shoulder, it was back, and many people are reproducing faster than we could get rid of it. You know we tried the substance that I’m not allowed to mention, that's in the Andreas Kalcker protocols. Very inexpensive way of creating strong oxidative, deadly burst to anaerobic bugs. That was very helpful to do animal treatment with that. But even then, in some patients, the rope parasite was reproducing faster and faster and faster and faster.

And so what we learned is then the moment I start aggressively treating the retroviruses in the person. Retroviruses, we all have them; they're all embedded in our DNA. But when they're active, many of them are immunosuppressive. And so my theory was, and it's consistent in the worm or parasite and the better parasite literature.

That out of the total power that you need to expel a parasite, the best concoction of medical drugs can maybe 20% of that work. And the other 80% needs to come out of the patient's own immune system.

And if that's laid flat with retroviral activity, we know from HIV does that very well, but there are hundreds of other retroviruses that they disabling significant parts of our immune system that doesn't come to help to shove the parasite out. And so we had some amazing results by combining the Gubarev protocols, the four major protocols together with retroviral treatment, and then, in most cases, it was successful.

[00:17:16.06] Scott: Beautiful. Let's talk about the sinuses. For the last many years, there's been a focus on MARCoNS or Multiple Antibiotic Resistant Coagulase Negative Staph. More recently, it seems that some practitioners are kind of questioning the significance of MARCoNS, or maybe concluding that maybe it doesn't seem to play as significant of a role in chronic illnesses, maybe we thought ten years ago. What's your perspective on MaARCoNS? And then what are some of your favorite interventions for optimizing the sinubiome?

[00:17:48.07] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. So first of all, statistically, we medical doctors have been informed that chronic sinusitis is probably the most common single symptom in the American population. But also going along with that, the most overlooked. Because the symptoms of chronic sinusitis can be, for example, headaches, it can be chronic neck pain. It could be chronic fatigue; it could be many others.

And so I think that's important, people don't always know if you press on the trigeminal nerve exit points, you will elicit some tenderness that is a cue that there's a problem going on. And so but the sinuses are not the only hollow spaces in the body that can be settled with the microbiome that is producing biotoxins or is producing chemical compounds that are adverse to your health.

So the hollow spaces can be hijacked, they're especially sensitive because they have generally poor aeration, poor oxygen flow. And so anaerobic bugs can grow their parasites we found. We've had several people, and we treated them for parasites. The parasites were coming out of the nose or the different places in the face. Chronic sinusitis, we stopped pretty much treating them with antibiotics, I do that in acute cases.

But the published treatment from the University of Vancouver in Canada was to use the neti pot treatment, the traditional Indian treatment. We have basically a teapot, and you'll run water down the nose. And then you actually use saltwater that dramatically increases the effect. And then they've found if you use Manuka honey, that's a teaspoon per 100 cc of the saltwater, you get dramatic, anti-inflammatory, and anti-infectious effects.

Not just where the fluid runs down, which is really just in the nose and the nasal passages, but it has an effect, an indirect effect on the sinuses. So that's one thing that we learned that was really important, and the studies that were done, it was more effective than antibiotic treatment. But then, by doing the nasal flushing, you flush out also some good bugs. But you're not getting into the sinus. And so with the Sanum therapy in the 1980s, we had a treatment where we could actually drip the remedies into the maxillary sinus, which is always the main problem.

But that was taken away from us, from the FDA. And so what we what we do now is like we use ART testing to determine which probiotic would be beneficial for the sinuses. Very common is MegaSpore probiotic, but there can be others. And then we dissolve that with a little bit of water, put it in a drop of bottle, and patient takes it a few times a day and drops it in the nose. And the wonderful thing is with living bugs; living bugs make it crawl through the little channels that connect the nose with the sinus. Or to the frontal sinus, or the sinus in the middle here, the ethmoid sinus.

But also, there's continuing that can travel up the eustachian tube to the inner ear, which can be dramatically helpful with chronic ear stuff. And so that combination neti pot with honey, manuka honey. And the probiotics putting them directly up in the nose. That has been in my hands much more successful than all the killing strategies that otherwise are recommended.

I’m not doubting, Dr. Shoemaker has done a fantastic research on the MARCoNS, but the truth is 25 percent of the human population have MARCoNS in the nose. And not every one of those has chronic fatigue. So there can be a link to that, but there must not be a link to that. And because the MARCoNS, if it's in 25% of the population, we have to assume it's part of our natural microbiome, at least a potential microbiome.

If it's found easily in 25 percent of people with repeated cultures and probably using the best ENT technique, you would probably find it in 35 percent or a third of the population. And that means it seems to be part of the natural microbiome of a certain population. And the question is then when do the MARCoNS start actually producing the things that travel up to the hypothalamus and cause trouble?

And I would hold again that's the same seven factors as the Electrosmog, the toxins, it's the dental work people have, the poor lymphatic drainage of this whole area here. We know that the dental occlusion, and the lymph drainage of the brain, of the sinuses, go through the tonsils and then down the front of the neck.

There can be blockages anywhere on this on this way, and when there is, you get sinusitis. And so you're focusing more on opening up the lymphatics, we have a cream for that, we have a massage technique. I inject the tonsils with procaine to open the lymphatics up; we inject the sinuses with procaine. That increases the blood flow in the sinuses. So there is a number of techniques that we have, they're all simple, I teach those. I think the wonderful thing that we owe to Dr. Shoemaker is the huge importance of what's in your nose and in your sinuses.

It does matter, and the things the biotoxins that are created in your sinuses. They can either go down, and if they go down, they go in the bloodstream, the liver, and the liver probably get rid of it. But if the lymphatics are blocked, it doesn't go down, it goes up and the brain and then you get problems. And so for me, the lymph drainage is number one, and number two is the neti pot, and number three is putting good probiotics in there.

[00:24:25.15] Scott: Fantastic. If we expand from the sinubiome to the microbiome of the brain, the oral cavity, the gut. Are there any emerging tools that you're excited about? You mentioned MegaSporeBbiotic. Any other big players in improving our microbiomes?

[00:24:42.13] Dr. Klinghardt: Well, the good news is that the microbiome that you carry is like a fingerprint. And so me, myself being an immigrant here in the U.S. I followed the literature a little bit. So wherever you were born and spent your last four or five years, the microbiome in your brain is established in the sinuses, in your eyes.

Every finger has a different microbiome on it. And that part of our system is very stable and virtually indestructible. This will always return back to that blueprint. And now the trouble is if you immigrate or, like many of you Americans, do not live where you were born and raised, many of you have moved from state to state, from town to town.

And so when you are with your microbiome now in a different environment, with a different microbiome, that's on itself a cause of stress and infections and fatigue and immune system problems and autoimmunity. So I say this because it's often overlooked. And so the microbiome in the brain seems to be very stable, yes. But it was found it's the soil bacteria where the person was living in the first couple of years.

They established a house in the brain, and it's a very important part driving our intelligence and our wisdom. And so you can temporarily disturb the microbiome like I know some of you had years and years of antibiotic treatment for Lyme disease. But the microbiome tends to even survive that. Because the microbiomes also has, it's blueprint in biofilm. And from there, it will be like a birthplace.

When you go away with the antibiotics born out of the natural biofilm that you have will be your natural microbiome will come back. I am worried about all the sophisticated biofilm breaking strategies because they don't selectively target the biofilm that houses pathogens.

But they target all biofilm. And biofilm, we know in breast cancer, for example, the breast that has a healthy microbiome in it never gets cancer. It's the breast that is sterile, that doesn't have a microbiome in it that gets the breast cancer. And so we know our own bugs and the proper program and how they're all talking to each other. Is set very early in life, and we should protect it in better ways than we have. And I’m no longer against the long-term use of antibiotics.

I know in the current climate and the environmental stresses, it is sometimes needed. I don't use that, but my colleagues do. And I’m open to that; I see successes with that. And yet it's important at some point to stop and bring your own bugs back, which may take a few months, maybe a year, but they do come back. And so more, I can't really say the biofilm strategy that I use; it's an intelligent one that's highly selective for biofilm.

That houses Lyme spirochetes, is my work with the Sardinian Cistus. Sardinian Cistus tea is published in actually in the dental literature as being a phenomenal biofilm breaker. But not, hardly biofilm that houses your own microbiome, but significantly affecting a biofilm that houses pathogens. So it's the only selective biofilm breaker I know, and so I stay with that one. 

[00:28:48.05] Scott: Yes. I think in a recent talk on cistus, you said if you're not using cistus tea, you are not my follower; you are not my fan. So that just underscores the importance.

You started talking about HPU and KPU probably 12 to 14 years ago as a real foundational part of treating Lyme and many other chronic conditions.

Where do you see that fitting in today? Is it still an integral part of your treatment? And is it something that you feel is safe enough for people to start incorporating if they're not closely working with a practitioner?

[00:29:23.15] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. So it's of course, that's a moving target. Yes, so KPU, Kryptopyrroluria or HPU Hemopyrrollactam blah blah blah the important thing is neither one of these conditions is yet embraced by the greater medical community as an issue. What is embraced in the medical community increasingly are the Porphyrias. The illnesses that go along with high levels of porphyrins that can cause a whole host of illness symptoms. And this condition KPU is linked to the Porphyrias. But if you want - Porphyrias have virtually no treatment, they're still looking for medication, or so they treat the porphyrin disorders.

But this part of the porphyrin disorder, KPU, is fully treatable. Porphyrins are involved in the metabolism of toxic metals. And so Doctor’s Data and other companies now offer a porphyrin profile when you're, for example, your coproporphyrin is elevated. That's an indicator in the last six months; your body was very much engaged with detoxing lead.

And if it's precoproporphyrin, it was mercury. With porphyrin, uroporphyrin, that's the aluminum indicator. So they're wonderful indicators for the much deeper level, actually approaching almost like the body burden, what is your body really struggling with? We do the porphyrin test; we don't do the challenge test anymore.

Because the value is very limited. And so in KPU, KPU is an incomplete molecule from the heme synthesis. Heme is a part of hemoglobin, but it's also part of all the detox enzymes of the phase one detox. They all use a heme molecule in them as a working factory in those enzymes. And in KPU, one of the eight enzymatic steps that's needed to create a perfect heme molecule is blocked, and you create a crippled, basically,  a crippled enzyme.

And this enzyme, instead of binding mercury or lead, it binds zinc and vitamin B6 and a couple of other really important things for our system. And when it's bound to that, the body doesn't recognize it as anything helpful and excretes it in the urine. So these people have an increased excretion of vitamin B6 and zinc. And since most of us do not have an abundance of zinc and vitamin b6 in our nutrition, people with KPU chronically are deficient with that.

And express the symptoms of the zinc deficiency could be any immune disorder including autoimmune disease, and the B6. Basically, all the psychiatric illnesses that I know of, somewhere that is the b6 deficiency is in there, in the literature. People get a whole host of symptoms, and I would like to refer still like to your website. Like the last paper that you and I wrote on that in the Townsend Letter still stands.

And I think rather than discussing it here, I think people should read the paper. And the treatment we use from BioPure, a supplement that I design based on the international literature, it's called CORE. And then for people with Lyme disease, when it came out that Lyme benefits from manganese as a switch, where most bacteria and creatures in us use iron as the central part of their metabolism.

And Borrelia can switch to use manganese instead if there's no iron there. And since in KPU, you lose a lot of iron. We created this CORE-S, stands for the Latin word sine that means without; sort of CORE-S is without the manganese. But we updated the formula a little bit because it turns out to absorb zinc, you need a little bit of vitamin A, I didn't know that.

But there are all the cofactors in there. And so in general, we recommend for the first four months or five months of treatment, you use CORE-S and then you switch to the CORE to also have the manganese in there, or use a little bit of both really; all I know, it's hugely helpful. Europe has gone way much forward based on my initial introduction to it. There's now; we checked last time over 17 books written on KPU and how to treat it.

The leading lab in the world is in Holland; it's called KEAC. And so there's a very good developments on this front. But KPU can be induced, can be inherited, and then you're in trouble. But very often, it's induced by Lyme disease. And so it really comes on the heels of Lyme disease and pretty much everybody, and it's totally ignored.

And I’ve been shunned here as a lecturer to show my cases. But basically in our experience, pretty much everybody with Lyme disease has a version of this, a milder version or a more severe version of this. But if you don't look for it, you overlook it. 

[00:35:14.28] Scott: Let's talk about the vagus nerve, and the role it plays in chronic illness. We know that some microbes like Bartonella or viruses and toxins, various metals can affect the vagus nerve. What do you view as the primary stressors of the vagus nerve? How important is it that we focus some of our treatment interventions on improving or optimizing vagal tone? And have you found any of the vagal nerve stimulators to be helpful?

[00:35:41.28] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. So you know, of course, the theory behind all this, the main name is Stephen Porges, he's a professor in Chicago, I believe. I don't know if he's still working there. I sort of followed his work 25 years ago and was very much taken by the neurology of the vagal nerve. The vagal nerve is really three different nerves in one.

Yes, so it's a difficult issue. First of all, there is very clear medical tests for the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve innervates the soft tissue on the back of the throat, and there's a test where people have, basically, have them do this, and you see if the veil in the back lifts symmetrically or if it's lifting more on one side than the other.

You very quickly get a sense of that. Also, the vagus nerve innervates the voice box, and so just by looking at the voice, and I do voice analysis as part of our treatment. The voice will reflect, and I can hear that now, when people have vagal nerve dysfunction. I can hear it that their voice is not resonance, it sounds flat, and the frequency is missing in that. So there are many ways of diagnosing the vagus nerve.

Of course, my preferred tool still is ART testing, my form of muscle testing. And so we find the vagus nerve is testing I’d say in at least two out of three of my chronic patients. And then it comes okay, what do we do for treatment that has worked? Well, I hate to say that, but none of the vagal nerve stimulators have had convincing effects on my patients and improving any symptoms.

And some of them are expensive; some are not so expensive. Steven Porges uses a sound system; others use electric impulses on the vagus nerve. I have not been happy with that, but we have a wonderful practitioner in town here. Mary Harris, who uses the chiropractic neurology foundation and gives people vagal nerve exercises. Some are as simple as gargling for two minutes four times a day, and I’ve seen some major improvements in people from that.

There's the gut-brain axis; now I have my own questions with that. The gut has trillions of neurons in it, has more neurons in the spinal cord. The vagus nerve only has 1,000 neurons that make that cable. And so the vagus nerve on its own does not explain the gut-brain axis; that's overvalued. So I'd like to say that very clearly yes, you cannot push the information of trillions of inputs through 1000 cables that can only carry one input at a time.

And so yes, the way the enteric nervous system connects to the brain is through the vagus nerve, and it is important, but I currently feel is overrated in the literature. Whenever people don't know what they're dealing with, they're blaming the vagus nerve on it. Or suggesting the vagus nerve, but then where’s the proof in the pudding.

You need to do; the nerve can heal either by detoxing it but by treating infections. And by using the nerve, that's the gargling, for example. And so yes, we find all the herpes viruses in the vagus nerve with our testing, especially Herpes type 6. And we find pretty much all of the aspects of Lyme disease and the vagal nerve, especially Babesia on Bartonella, but also Borrelia.

And the vagus nerve is quite long; vagus stands for vagabond. It kind of starts in a brain stem, travels down, and goes to every organ. And has a huge length overall and to detox that, it's just a general detox that we do to treat the infections. It's a general detox, infection treatment that we do, and it will take some time to reach inside the nerve.

I work with herbs, with my own herbal cocktails, that have to be prepared liposomally in order to be able to be taken up into the nerve. And that works very well. And so we get through that. And then maybe last thing, the vagus nerve is in the brain, the interneuron connection with other parts of the brain very much involved with our emotions, and that's currently sort of emphasized in the literature.

When the vagus nerve is dysfunctional, your emotions are dysfunctional. But I would dare to say it's the other way around more commonly. If your limbic system is off or toxic, got Lyme disease breeding in there distorting your messages, then you get distorted messages coming down the vagus nerve.

And really interfering with the healthy gut function, but also you get chest pain, you get anxiety and the heart because the vagus system breaks on the heart rhythm. Vagus goes to the liver, initiating the detox functions. and to the kidneys initiating detox functions; that can all become dysfunctional because the limbic system is dysfunctional. 9 out of 10 times, it's that way around and maybe 1 out of 10 times the other way around. 

[00:41:35.02] Scott: So the limbic system is exactly where I was wanting to go next. One of the observations that I’ve had this year from an ART perspective is the number of people with limbic systems and amygdala-associated stress seems to be much more than I’ve observed in the past. And so I think the worldwide pandemic certainly is creating a new level of stress and anxiety. And so talk to us about the role of the limbic system in chronic illness.

Do you find that once the actual trigger, the mold, the infection whatever is addressed that we need to use some rebooting strategies like DNRS or the Gupta system or things of that nature? What are you doing to kind of calm the nervous system and signal to the body that everything is, in fact, okay? And then, where would you place something like DNRS in your five levels of healing model? Would you consider that a fourth level intervention?

[00:42:27.12] Dr. Klinghardt: No, I would call it a third level intervention because you use your own mind to reset your mind. And so you don't go to a higher place really as I understand it. But I don't want to play God here either, so there's certainly some practitioners that can elevate any system to a higher level, including DNRS.

So I mean the I think that the key piece here is that all of us have a biography, have a history. And many aspects of our history leave behind traumatic imprints, and those are stored in the limbic system. Mostly in the amygdala, it’s the emotional part of it, and the hippocampus more the factual part of the memory.

But it hangs there, and the more traumatic memory is, the more it jams the inner machinery also the self-healing potential of these structures. We know that the hippocampus shrinks with repeated trauma, but can be brought back to life and grow again. It's the only part of the brain really where it's been shown that you can fully heal the hippocampus and bring it back to its full size.

Size and function don't always correlate, but there's some good news on that. And then, when your limbic system is very active, let's say you go through a divorce or some emotional thing, you have increased blood flow during that time. Much increased 10-20 fold the blood flow that you normally have.

If, for example, you have your mercury amalgam fillings removed on one of those days, you will get a hundred-fold load into the limbic system deposited. Or if you get stuck in a tunnel, you're driving to work and inhale all the fumes from the exhaust, the cadmium and the petrochemicals. And your limbic system is just very active, it's going to be damaged, and some of the damage is going to be there for years or for lifetime. And so I think that's largely overlooked, how does the limbic system get toxic. Well, exactly that way.

I just attended the ILADS meeting; why is now the limbic system suddenly becoming such an important player in Lyme disease that is more affected than other structures in the body. And so I think it's important, the long-term strategies that they're using, the detoxing and the treating the infections that should be the foundation. And then what you do to then actually use the neurons of the, so the brain always heals in three ways. You detox, you treat the infection, and then you have to use the neurons in the area that were sick in order to get the medicine in there.

And DNRS is a good method; I use my Psychokinesiology that I developed like eons ago or Mental Field Therapy. And we all have our own things. And I liked it there; maybe I’ll do a little PR work here. My mother ship is Klinghardt Institute, not Klinghardt Academy, Klinghardt Institute, where we'll be teaching all these things. And now forced by COVID, we make everything available online and. And it has been fun for me to rethink these methods.

[00:45:55.17] Scott: Beautiful. I want to get into a few questions about the ultra-sensitive patient. And so when you have a patient that can't tolerate a few tablets of chlorella or a drop of Cocktail, for example. What do you think about in terms of what's setting the stage for them to not be able to tolerate even the mildest of interventions at very low dosages?

[00:46:19.12] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. I mean, one part of that is the whole mast cell activation thing. But remember, even the mast cells are under control of the autonomic nervous system. And the autonomic nervous system is switched together with the limbic system in the brain.

And so increasingly, I’m using my own work, my own Psychokinesiology and my Mental Field Therapy to help people stabilize this system. And people need to learn to meditate, they need to do yoga, they need to learn how to be in charge of their own system, their own immune reactions and that there are beautifully new wonderful techniques including DNRS and others. And America is kind of the leader in the types of new psychotherapeutic ways of getting dominion over your own system.

[00:47:23.06] Scott: Talk to us for a minute about oxalates. So whether we're seeing high oxalic acid on an organic acids test, or maybe through ART, what do you think of as the primary sources of oxalates? Is it dietary? Is it fungal overgrowth? Is it something else? And then, how do you approach helping the person that is stressed by oxalates? How do you approach treatment?

[00:47:44.27] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. So I discovered in the biological literature, agricultural literature that all the plants that we know of that we're eating upregulate the oxalate content if they're exposed to aluminum.

Now since we're spraying the whole world with aluminum for the artificial cloud cover, we have huge exposure to aluminum everywhere. And I'm postulating, I cannot prove it, but we're not different from the rest of biology that our own body is upregulating the oxalate levels as a self-defense against inhaled aluminum.

And now I can prove that to a certain degree, so when we do organic acid testing and it shows up in a certain level. And then I make a focus of aluminum detox, that the oxalate levels come down very quickly. And then I use Desferal or my …. cilantro and the footpath oxalate levels come down very quickly.

Now there is limits to that, so autistic kids often have lost their mechanism by which they can actually respond to reasonable detox mechanism, or that may take longer. And then it is very valuable to do a low oxalate diet or oxalate free diet as much as that's possible. So I’m not against that, but it should not be the endpoint of therapy, endpoint should be get the aluminum down.

[00:49:19.03] Scott: Excellent. Salicylate intolerance is another topic that's come up quite a bit in things that I’ve come across recently. And then maybe more broadly, phenols or phenolic intolerances as well. What are your thoughts on salicylate or phenolic intolerance, and how to approach creating more tolerance of those substances?

[00:49:39.25] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. I mean, that's been around since the 1980s. The first EAV machines have all tuned in detecting allergies to the phenolics and salicylates. I'm a little bit dumb here because I use ART muscle testing. We test every food in multiple ways and eliminate everything that's not testing.

And then when we base the diet on that, not on some diet idea whatever this diet or that diet, but we actually test every food item. And we cannot only test if it's bad for you, but we can also test for how good it is for you. And so we're constructing a diet around that. And so with that, people gain within a few months huge stability, and they become tolerant again towards most of foods that are in question here. And so I have to kind of pass on this question in other ways, I’m kind of spoiled by having a method that bypasses all the known other systems.

But I know NAET and some of the other techniques have been helpful in the past to desensitize people towards phenolics, towards salicylates. I know there is a genetic fix that kind of find certain genes that are predisposing you to it, and there's, I know several supplement suggestions that may work. But I go the simple way.

I go directly approach the foods and the vitamins and everything they're taken by mouth or by injection, and give us a rating from -4 to +4.  +4 being a real healing food, and -4 being really highly allergic and so it's a in the nature of our technique.

[00:51:29.12] Scott: Stephanie Seneff talks about sulfate deficiency, and yet many of the sensitive patients seem to also not tolerate a lot of the sulfur-containing compounds. So what do you potentially do to help someone increase their tolerance to these sulfur compounds? Or to be able to address the sulfate deficiency?

[00:51:49.01] Dr. Klinghardt: Yes. So I had a wonderful teacher in homeopathy, this is now we're talking about the early 70s. Who was aware that a lot of people cannot metabolize sulfur in appropriate ways and get in trouble over life from that. And so I use homeopathy, so you start with homeopathic sulfur and the C200.

And then they give a few doses of that, and when the total rate you go down to maybe to 100 and then to, first the C potencies and then like maybe a C60 and then you may ship to a D60 which is much more concentrated and then go down the potencies until you get down to a low potency like whatever in the U.S. you can only get a D6.

And when you tolerate that, then you can shift and take some nutritional suffer like MSM, and I've never seen that not work. And so it's a desensitization procedure, but this is much deeper. It treats miasms and treats your genes and treats the epigenome and things that are involved around the sulfur metabolism. If people would be truly allergic to sulfur, you wouldn't be here because your body has a substantial part of sulfur that needs to be replenished from time. They have a certain turnover of that, and if not, you're simply wasting away. You would live only a few months at most if you were truly sulfur allergic.

And so it's a question of what your body does with it and the immune responses. And the insanity of what we're all exposed to. And so by minimizing the electrosmog and detoxing and treating Lyme disease, the homeopathic, the resetting of the sulfur works beautifully.

[00:53:36.24] Scott: This next question is a deeper question from a listener, and that is that the practice of medicine has undergone so much change since it began. And the question is, has that change been the result of increased knowledge of disease? Or an increase in environmental and biological alterations in the world? Are we in the process of the sixth mass extinction? And what do you feel is the fate of the human race?

[00:54:01.25] Dr. Klinghardt: Well, first of all, I’d like to object here. I don't think the practice of medicine, unfortunately, has changed very much. Sort of my colleagues that I observed they're still prescribing the same drugs that they did 30 years ago. They don't do genetic testing; they're not considering that. They don't do organic acid testing; they don't look for toxins.

So it's a smaller subgroup of us that has moved sort of forward, I believe forward with it. And so let's not be deceived; the rest of humanity is pretty much stuck with where medicine was 30-40 years ago. There is newer drugs, and some of them are questionable whether they have a place, and yet the pharmaceutical industry is moving nicely with the times. And so we're always hoping that there's going to be a big breakthrough.

But we really haven't seen it. Some psychiatrists are very good at administrating now the plethora of psychiatric drugs and actually find good things. And they're ultimately all reverting back to using vitamins. So there's that, but I think the background that's become so clear now with the COVID crisis is there are a very few people that have gained influence to the World Health Organization to politics, to the media.

And their intent for the world is not the intent of health for everybody; it's like the intent is prosperity and health for a few chosen people at the cost of the rest of us. And so yes, I do believe we are in the midst of the sixth extinction. But this one is driven entirely not by the sun cycles, not by the natural cycles of the earth. It's driven by people with non-life affirmative, evil consciousness. It's clearly man-made, but not that we're all driving cars, and that's causing it.

But that we have the inside information that really intentionally much of the planet right now is threatened and destroyed by people that have their hands on the power knobs. But there's hope in that; if it's only a few people that are willfully engaging in this, they could also wake up one day and say well, I’m not going to do this anymore. I’m going to actually do something good with my money or my power. And so we are waiting for that. But that's really all I want to say. I have a lot of details information from sources that I’m not privy to share.

[00:56:56.12] Scott: What are a couple of the top things that you're currently doing for your own health that are exciting you the most at present?

[00:57:04.00] Dr. Klinghardt: Well, I’m not doing hormones right now, because I realize that was a shortcut that works for a few years, but then it doesn't. I’m very simple; I’m sort of guarded. I’m not doing the peptides that every one of my friends is doing. I’m not doing growth hormone, because it's forbidden in my state. I try as much as possible to get to a regular supportive lifestyle with exercise and sleep and decent food being the main the main part.

I take vitamin C and niacin; that's one of my more consistent things. I’m in and out of thyroid hormone because I had like some very clear injury to the part of my body. But everything else I’m rotating. I’m rotating different vitamin type of things that I do for a few days. And I try to everyday work a slightly different protocol.

But the big one for me is still regularly looking what food sources my body perceives as healing food and which food sources my body perceives as threatening to my health. And so navigating between those two that has been fantastic for me. You know, and honestly, I mean, I’m 70 now, and so I’m looking at where is a reliable program to stay healthy longer. And oh yes, I should probably say Japanese Knotweed, I mentioned it yesterday. I take that regularly because it both treats Lyme and COVID, and I get that from BioPure, and I love it. That's something I can clearly feel, and that's it. I stay busy and work my mind.

[00:59:11.05] Scott: Definitely. Dr. Klinghardt, you have been my primary mentor now for 15 years. This coming January, you've certainly changed my life for the better in many ways and the lives of so many. I thank you, we thank you, and I appreciate you being so generous over the last couple days and sharing your knowledge. And just honor you for all that you do. I can't imagine how different my life would be had I not crossed paths with you. So thank you so much.

[00:59:38.01] Dr. Klinghardt: Thank you, Scott, bye, Scott. 

[00:59:39.20] To learn more about today's guest, visit KlinghardtInstitute.com or SophiaHI.com. That's KlinghardtInstitute.com or SophiaHI.com. KlinghardtInstitute.com or SophiaHI.com.

[00:59:59.02] Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a positive rating or review, as doing so will help the show reach a broader audience. To follow me on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter, you can find me there as better health guy. If you'd like to support the show, please visit BetterHealthGuy.com/donate. And to be added to my newsletter, visit BetterHealthGuy.com/newsletters. This and other shows can be found on YouTube, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, and Spotify.

[01:00:34.07] Thanks for listening to this BetterHealthGuy Blogcast, with Scott, your better health guy. To check out additional shows and learn more about Scott's personal journey to better health, please visit BetterHealthGuy.com.


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