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In this episode, you will learn about the integrative treatment of biotoxin illness.

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About My Guest

My guest for this episode is Dr. Jodie A. Dashore.  Jodie A. Dashore, PhD is an internationally recognized pioneering clinician in autism spectrum disorders, mold/ biotoxin illness, chronic inflammatory response syndrome (CIRS), and Lyme disease.  As a member of ILADS (International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society) and a Lyme Literate Naturopathic clinician since 2010, Dr. Dashore's has an amazing track record using all-natural protocols for helping patients with chronic and treatment-resistant Lyme disease.  Dr. Dashore received her Ph.D. in integrative medicine with her thesis focus on medical herbalism for autism spectrum disorders.  She holds a Doctorate in OT specializing in neurology with her thesis focus on traumatic brain injury and stroke.  She additionally holds a Post Doctoral specialization in advanced neuro-sensory integration.  Dr. Dashore is a registered herbalist with the American Herbalist Guild.

Key Takeaways

  • What was Dr. Dashore's personal journey with Lyme disease and biotoxin illness?
  • What is the role of immune dysregulation in biotoxin illness?
  • What are the triggers for MCAS?
  • What tools may be helpful for regaining autonomic balance?
  • What is the role of MARCoNS in biotoxin illness?
  • What is the connection between PANS/PANDAS and CIRS?
  • How is GENIE transcriptomic testing different from SNP testing?
  • Why is never getting sick or not having a fever not always a good sign?
  • Can methylation be supported too early and lead to new problems?
  • What advantages might herbs have over pharmaceutical medications in the treatment of Lyme?
  • How might herbal formulas go beyond biochemistry and into the realm of biophysics?
  • What are the 7 steps of the BioNexus approach?
  • How might camel milk support the immune system?
  • What considerations should be explored when a young person goes to college?
  • What might a maintenance approach look like?
  • What are the two universal truths? Can they co-exist?
  • What is the role of mother's intuition in healing a child with biotoxin illness?

Connect With My Guest

http://BioNexusHealth.com

Interview Date

January 22, 2021

Transcript

Transcript Disclaimer: Transcripts are intended to provide optimized access to information contained in the podcast.  They are not a full replacement for the discussion.  Timestamps are provided to facilitate finding portions of the conversation.  Errors and omissions may be present as the transcript is not created by someone familiar with the topics being discussed.  Please Contact Me with any corrections.       

[00:00:00.29] Welcome to BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts, empowering your better health. And now, here's Scott, your Better Health Guy.

[00:00:14.05] The content of this show is for informational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any illness or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or as information to facilitate self-treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health-related decisions with your own personal medical authority.

[00:00:34.14] Scott: Hello everyone, and welcome to episode number 138 of the BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts series. Today's guest is Dr. Jodie Dahsore, and the topic of the show is Biotoxin Illness. Dr. Jodie Dahsore is an internationally recognized pioneering clinician in autism spectrum disorders, mold, and biotoxin illness, Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, or CIRS, and Lyme disease.

As a member of ILADS, the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, and a Lyme literate naturopathic clinician since 2010. Dr. Dahsore has an amazing track record using all-natural protocols for helping patients with chronic and treatment-resistant Lyme disease. Dr. Dahsore received her PhD in integrative medicine with her thesis focus on 'medical herbalism for autism spectrum disorders'. She holds a doctorate in occupational therapy specializing in neurology, with her thesis focus on traumatic brain injury and stroke.

She additionally holds a post-doctoral specialization in advanced neurosensory integration. Dr. Dahsore is a registered herbalist with the American Herbalist Guild. And now, my interview with Dr. Jodie Dahsore. You and I met at an ILADS conference over a decade ago. And at that time, I remember your son Brian was at the very beginning of his own health challenges and ultimate recovery. I’m really excited today to talk more with you about biotoxin illness, thanks so much for being here today Dr. Dahsore.

[00:02:10.26] Dr. Dahsore: Happy to be here Scott, good to see you again.

[00:02:13.18] Scott: Talk to us about the personal journey that you and Brian have been on, and how that led both of you to the passion that you have today for helping others.

[00:02:22.02] Dr. Dahsore: I was a speaker at ILADS 2012 in Boston, right in the middle of Superstorm Sandy I recall. Actually, Scott, do you recall the dinner organized for Dr. Charles Ray Jones's birthday at that sushi place in Manhattan? I think there was you, my family, Ray Jones.

[00:02:39.14] Scott: Dr. Triffletti.

[00:02:40.29] Dr. Dahsore: Dr. Triffletti, and a few more, you know, Judy Leventhal. Klinghardt maybe, I’m not sure if he was stuck with press or he was able to make it. That was probably the second time I met you in person.

Well regarding Brian, with Brian what we eventually found out was a gestational transfer of Lyme disease,   vaccine-injured, and on the spectrum by two years of age.  DAN-based biomedical approach had minimal impact.

At around 6.5 years of age, he lost the use of his left leg. It was excruciating pain in both his hips, and he became wheelchair-bound with severe motor tics, head shaking, eye blinking, vocal grunting. Severe EMF sensitivity. From orthopedic surgeons to pediatric cancer specialists, they had no answers. Through online research, I found Dr. Triffletti and subsequently Dr. Jones.

Followed by Dr. Klinghardt, Stephen Buhner, Jemsek, Shoemaker.  He was diagnosed and treated for Lyme, Bartonella henselae, Bartonella quintana. Babesia duncani, Babesia microti, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, PANS. Initially, it was PANDAS, and then it became PANS. Intestinal parasites, Mycoplasma, multiple viruses, CIRS. Failure to thrive, early puberty, severe growth delay, and the rest is history I guess. That's Brian's story.

[00:04:14.10] Scott: So I know there was a lot of exploration, you mentioned several of the things that you found early on. How did you later come to discover that Brian was also dealing with Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome or CIRS, biotoxin illness, mold illness? When did that come into the picture?

[00:04:30.12] Dr. Dahsore: Well, that would start with the gestational transfer of Lyme disease. There were several underlying triggers and issues involved which would be wise to discuss those as well if I may. So we had the gestational transfer of Lyme, the next would be a tremendous amount of stress hormones and toxins. I don't know if you know, but I was approximately seven months pregnant when 9/11 happened.

And my husband worked on the 42nd floor of the south tower. Thankfully, he did escape with back and head injuries due to being trampled upon on the stairs. But I was immensely grateful to have him back. We lost friends and neighbors, and both had severe PTSD. After that vaccines namely TDAP was a disaster at 18 months. I haven't allowed a single vaccine after that for Brian. Other triggers were Strep, Mycoplasma, and mold exposure.

All were pretty much simultaneous, and they all became chronic. Brian manifested ASD until his immune system crashed into autoimmunity at six and a half years as I mentioned earlier. Dr. Jones later explained Lyme induced autism to me, and it made perfect sense. However, in its truest sense, it was the severest case of biotoxin-induced autism that I have seen. Seven and a half years of suffering, learning, and slowly peeling away the layers. There were two times when we nearly lost him. He was in uncontrollable pain, he was losing a pound a day, down to skin and bones.

I was seeking out even faith healers at that point. But the family's prayers worked. Buhner, Julie, Dietrich, Jones all came through for Brian and saved his life. You as well Scott, you have been such an amazing guide and friend of the family for nearly a decade. I knew I could turn to you if I was stuck with research, or I needed more information on a new cutting-edge treatment option.

The gift of illness in our case was Brian’s suffering and journey to wellness was the groundwork that led to my metamorphosis as well. I lost the diagnosis of chronic fatigue CFS/ME, fibromyalgia, experienced tremendous weight loss, gained tremendous wellness, and went on to help what's now over 1,200 patients around the world and counting. Brian and I both have multiple moderate musculoskeletal permanent disabilities, but we are all overall blessed and thriving.

[00:07:10.12] Scott: Beautiful. In these complex conditions like autism, PANS, PANDAS, even in Lyme and mold illness and those types of conditions, there is often an imbalance or dysregulation of the immune system that plays a fairly significant role in these conditions. And so I’m wondering if you can help our audience better understand immune dysregulation, autoimmunity, and the goal really being more immune modulation as compared to what people often hear of immune-boosting.

[00:07:41.12] Dr. Dahsore: Well, that is a very important and a very complex question. A hundred percent of autistic patients in my practice have PANS, with microbial triggers that include tick-borne infections. Over 65% also have CIRS, CIRS Chronic Inflammatory Response syndrome. So now let's see, I believe since 2012, approximately 127 studies have been published linking ASD, autism spectrum disorders to immune dysfunction which is genetically predisposed. Over 650,000 patients that were studied, had a family history of autoimmune disease.

Now Lyme disease and biotoxin illness both have a huge impact on our immune system. Studies have shown that Borrelia, which is the Lyme bacterium, is genetically superior with multiple life forms and exhibits tropism which means it can simultaneously invade multiple cell lines like the neurologic endothelial cell lines, immunologic T-cell lines, and so on. This further enables other co-infections like Bartonella, Babesia, Mycoplasma to be able to do the same.

Borrelia exerts a tremendous immunosuppressive effect, disrupts the microbiome and exhibits pretty remarkable persistence through its immune evasion mechanisms. Human genetic and immunologic factors for disease expression also play an important role in just exactly how Lyme disease will affect that particular person. So in all, it's a highly individualized disease complex. Lyme along with its co-infections are major triggers for PANS and other autoimmunity.

Now, let's understand a bit about our immune system briefly. The innate immune system constitutes the first line of host defense during infection. So mast cells, dendritic cells, macrophages, neutrophils, etc. Early recognition that triggers off a pro-inflammatory response to invading microbes or pathogens, and this signals or wakes up the adaptive immune system. Now, the adaptive immune system which is T-cells, B-cells on the other hand is responsible for elimination of these pathogens in the late phase of infection. And it also generates an immunological memory.

So most patients know white blood cells or WBCs they see in their blood work. So WBCs are called as leukocytes, and there are many types of leukocytes. One type is lymphocytes and T-cells and B-cells are both the main types of lymphocytes or primary types, that are part of our adaptive immune system. And that determine the specificity of immune response to an invasion. There are numerous pattern recognition receptors on our immune cells. And any kind of interference with pathogen-induced inflammatory responses by any internal or external mechanisms by the microbes, as described earlier and I just spoke about that. So that can occur when there are environmental influences or epigenetic triggers like multiple infections.

Then you can have infections plus toxins, genetic predisposition to immune dysfunction, and so on. Inflammation, cell wall damage with excessive microbial lipopolysaccharide, LPS, and other factors can cause, this is important. What happens is these factors can cause abnormal localization, abnormal or aberrant localization of toxic molecules, that in turn leads to abnormal molecular complexes or auto antibody complexes being formed which are then picked up as usual by our immune cells pattern recognition receptors, the most famous of them, many physicians talk about them are the toll like receptors. However, this time they are triggering an innate response, which is autoimmune or auto-inflammatory in nature. So it's a complex, and intricate clinical scenario of neuroimmune mechanisms that are either pathogen-triggered or toxin-mediated. I think there's a lot of emerging information with respect to medical implications of bacteria or pathogen-mediated immune-deficiencies like we see in Lyme disease and co-infections and autoimmune diseases.

I know that various Lyme specialists and Lyme doctors have already published case studies and research studies on this topic. So there are additional studies that are also looking at possibilities for translation into clinical and therapeutic applications. In fact, recently, I remember reading a blog by Dr. Brownstein that also talks about the role of infectious agents in autoimmune and auto-inflammatory diseases. Most powerful herbs, speaking of treatment, most powerful herbs themselves have a complex bouquet of active bio-compounds that can be tapped into in the hands of an experienced clinical herbalist.

[00:13:46.26] Scott: 100% agree with that, I’ve had my herbs already this morning, so it's beautiful. So what we're saying is that in these conditions, there's often an over activation or a heightened innate immune response with an absent or under-functioning adaptive immune response. And you kind of get stuck in that pattern.

So if we're talking about inflammation, immune dysregulation, let's jump into mast cell activation and histamine a little bit. So what percentage of your patients would you say are dealing with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, histamine intolerance? And what do you think of as the top triggers for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, and maybe a few of your favorite tricks and tools or interventions in that realm?

[00:14:29.25] Dr. Dahsore: Scott, as you know I’ve recently been accepted to Harvard medical school, the short immunology intensive program. I’m currently attending classes, and it's been just amazing learning immunology from legends like Dr. Shiv Pillai and Andrew Lichtman. For my dissertation, I'm debating between the PANS/ASD connection or the mast cell activation and CIRS connection.

For now, in my practice, the patients with the underlying microbial infections, and or those with long-term mold exposure seem to have a higher incidence of MCAS, which is Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. And multiple chemical sensitivities or MCS. Of course, genetics and type of exposure plays an important role as well. Now let's take a closer look, mast cells are part of our innate immune response. And just briefly, your innate immune system is the factory-installed, the one that you're born with.

Your adaptive immune system is, an easy example would be when you're exposed to chickenpox, you don't get chickenpox again. That's because your immune system adapts, you develop immunity. Your immune system recognizes that again, and then you don't develop chickenpox again. So that's your adaptive immune system very simply put.

So mast cells are part of our innate immune response. They belong to a first responder group of cells known as sentinel cells which are our first line of defense against microbes or threats to the host which would be us. When unwanted substances like microbes become attached to the innate immune receptors, the mast cells will release pro-inflammatory mediators like histamine, leukotrienes, prostaglandins, etc. Now, these are all signaling molecules that help further this inflammatory response.

Additionally, mast cells can work with other cells like T and B lymphocytes, to enhance activation and migration by cell to cell interactions of the secreted products. So T cells are cells of the adaptive immune system and the regulatory T cells or Tregs as they are popularly known. Treg cells can induce the much-needed tolerance and control autoimmunity.

Mast cells unfortunately also can suppress Treg activity. Now when you understand this, and I’ve simplified it a great deal of course. It does become a bit clearer why Mast Cell Activation Syndrome occurs and stays for a while. As long as the person is exposed to microbial and other triggers like stress, food, alcohol, VOCs, chemicals, mold even changes in gut microbiome. I mean the longer the exposure, the longer the innate immune activation, and the greater are the chances of developing an auto inflammatory disorder.

Where the mast cells become activated quicker, with more triggers, and the histamine cascade stays triggered on longer. Now here, I need to dive a little bit deeper into this auto inflammatory versus autoimmune. One leading to the other, the mechanisms involved, it's often used interchangeably. No one has been able to explain to me, since back when Brian was diagnosed with the CRMO, which is a chronic relapsing multifocal osteomyelitis which is considered auto inflammatory, and then I had certain specialists call it autoimmune. And then it ended up with PANS, PANDAS which is autoimmune. So now coming to treatment, I like to use homotoxicology remedies in the beginning like PEKANA PROALLER or D-HIST as tier 1 support. While working on underlying pathology, and then for tier 2 next step, which comes after we have eliminated most triggers.

I get the best results using the Mast Cell Support Blend along with the Immune System Modulating Blend. And people who are listening will understand this now, because I’ve already explained the importance of the regulatory T cells and why immune modulation is important.

[00:19:30.21] Scott: We're going to talk more about some of those products that you formulated. This entire conversation really, the reason we jumped into doing this podcast, and I wanted to do it was because Dr. Dahsore has put out this beautiful book and I highly recommend it. It's quite detailed, it's a fantastic education in biotoxin illness.

One of the things that you mentioned in the book around mast cell activation that caught my attention was that you talked about in Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, and histamine intolerance, that histamine creates exotoxins that invite quorum sensing or quorum bacteria to create biofilms. And that was a new connection for me, I’m wondering if you can just comment briefly on that.

[00:20:15.22] Dr. Dahsore: First of all, thank you for the kind words. Okay, so we need to look at all of this from a source perspective, from a biotoxin perspective. So the key words here will be the innate immune system, mucous membranes, MARCoNS. Natural biofilm, all of this accounts for a natural biofilm promoting terrain.

The answer is a bit technical and once again, I’ll try and keep it simple. Now quorum sensing molecules or QSMs are peptides that are secreted by bacteria to signal population density and growth. So upon reaching a target level of concentration, quorum sensing molecules have the capability to induce transcriptional alterations in bacteria which enable the virulence factor expression and biofilm formation. So I’ll leave it at that. Now in other words, in patients with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, addressing biofilm early on in the game is a helpful and a good strategy in my opinion.

Often, in the beginning, when I was learning about biofilm, I knew that you had to wait to treat the initial pathogen load, the various co-infections. And then go in for cyst busting, as it used to be called. But learning more and more has brought me to the conclusion that in some patients, especially patients with mast cell activation, it is advisable to address biofilm early on to the benefit of the patient.

[00:22:00.28] Scott: And I guess maybe see if you agree with this, that the way I would more simply talk about quorum sensing is that it's a communication mechanism between these organisms. To communicate threat, so that these organisms then are better able to have a defensive response and persist in the body, create biofilms. And so they're essentially talking to each other within us to help their survival. 

[00:22:29.26] Dr. Dahsore: I would agree with that, yes.

[00:22:31.05] Scott: Beautiful. In the ultra-sensitive patient, which I know you see many of, those people that really can't tolerate anything at the beginning that you start them with. Not herbs, not capsules, tablets anything. What patterns have emerged from your work in terms of the things that lead people to a hypersensitization state?

[00:22:51.27] Dr. Dahsore: Predominantly, it would be the mast cell activation and multiple chemical sensitivity mechanisms I explained earlier. Patterns can be changed with the right treatment. For example, I have patients who've been stuck in a downward spiral for a while and they bounce back. From tolerating very bland food, losing weight, they go on to tolerate complex flavors and foods.

[00:23:18.15] Scott: In dysautonomias like POTS or postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, acetylcholine is the primary neurotransmitter that supports the parasympathetic nervous system, our ability to rest, digest, detoxify and heal.

So I’m interested in why is it important to explore potential anticholinergic medications in these conditions, and what are some of the tools that you found helpful for regaining autonomic nervous system balance.

[00:23:48.21] Dr. Dahsore: I find it important to explore the pharmacodynamics, the pharmacokinetics, and side effects of all medications The patient is on like way beyond what's in the pamphlet that's handed over by the sales rep. Most patients dealing with Lyme and mold issues exhibit autonomic imbalance. Steven Porges has a few good techniques in his book on the polyvagal theory that many of my patients find useful.

He talks about interactions between the vagus nerve and the spinal accessory nerve. In fact, the branches of the vagus nerve as well that contribute to developing certain maladaptive musculoskeletal patterns that can develop and that feed right back into the autonomic imbalance.

So additionally acupuncture, essential oils, transcendental meditation are some of the tools I find useful. A large number of patients obtain relief with exploring and enhancing their endocrine, endocrine hormone balance as well. Hormones play a huge role. So all in all, it is of paramount importance a practitioner is cognizant of these factors. 

[00:25:04.29] Scott: I want to touch a little bit on the topic of MARCoNS. In some circles, MARCoNS has kind of taken a back seat in recent years. It's not always a top priority for treatment. But I’m interested in what you've observed in your clinical practice, with your patients when you're treating MARCoNS. Do you think that it can be eradicated long term? And when it appears to be treatment-resistant, what are some of the other things people need to explore?

[00:25:31.21] Dr. Dahsore: In the very beginning, CIRS protocol did not consider MARCoNS investigation as a necessary step for the pediatric population. However, clinically I started seeing a trend which led me to believe it would be important to look at it. So I started running nasal swabs on all my pediatric cases and bingo, huge issue. MARCoNS, large amounts, four to eight antibiotic-resistant, often vancomycin, gentamicin resistant. I mean think about it right. ASD kids autism spectrum disorder kids, antifungals for months even years, that's a huge issue.

And once eliminated, I’m talking about MARCoNS now. So antifungals for month’s even years is a huge issue, and I need to explain this a bit more. Because Dr. Shoemaker’s research shows that the azole class of antifungals can be detrimental to a source patient, and it increases the microbial resistance in the MARCoNS. And we know that multiple antibiotic resistant coagulase negative staff, the mechanism of action of MARCoNS is it releases toxins A and B which cross over the blood-brain barrier, exert their influence with the multi-nuclear atrophy and inflammation in the brain.

So any kind of connection to something as important as microbial toxins crossing the blood-brain barrier certainly deserves a look and a visit, and in my opinion, treatment. Because once eliminated, what I have consistently seen is huge cognitive gains, additional gains with seasonal allergies, bedwetting, mouth breathing, snoring. Now, this I have only seen with formula one NSB nasal spray, and the best answer here would be it is the multifactorial effect of herbs that's included in the herbal spray for MARCoNS.

[00:27:45.15] Scott: So some of the pharmaceuticals that you were talking about were thinking then of things like fluconazole, itraconazole, voriconazole those types of things that they potentially lead to more resistance when trying to then later treat something like Marcon's.

When you're unable to eradicate or get a negative test when you've been treating MARCoNS in a patient. What are some of the other things you need to think about? I mean I’ve heard people talk about the dental issues and pets and other family members and things. What do you find key there?

[00:28:17.11] Dr. Dahsore: All of the above. One important thing I learned when I was trying to get Brian well, traveling all over the place Switzerland, Paracelsus, Austria, Germany as you know. The best naturopathic practitioners, the best practitioners who understood PANS, PANDAS, autism children they insist on treating the family as a whole.

And in my experience, what I have found is Mycoplasma, MARCoNS, parasites, and Strep. These have to be treated in all members of the family. If we expect to see the best clinical outcomes for a pediatric patient. Especially a patient with autism spectrum disorder.

[00:29:10.23] Scott: When MARCoNS is present generally speaking MSH will be low. I’m wondering what have you found helpful for increasing MSH clinically? And then in the book, you mentioned a connection between low MSH and melatonin synthesis. So I’m wondering if you can talk with us more about whether or not supplemental melatonin has any impact on MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone.

[00:29:34.14] Dr. Dahsore: Some patients have a genetic predisposition for low MSH, which shows up with the HLA-DR haplotype testing. The maximum increase in MSH I’ve seen is 18 points, and the minimum is a seven points gain once the patients have completed the BioNexus herbal treatment.

I haven't analyzed the various other factors involved other than having completed the BioNexus herbal treatment. Now a brain MRI NeuroQuant, right? Data wise, only four patients have been able to do a repeat NeuroQuant due to cost. But a symptom-wise, over 80 percent have shown cognitive gains.

NS1 and NS2 blends are herbs that cross the blood-brain barrier, they have neuronal regeneration factors and that seems to help. It seems to help tremendously with recovery. You asked about low MSH and melatonin supplementation, I do supplement with melatonin often high doses are required, many patients have to build up slow.

Actually, the highest that I have gone so far that has been clinically possible for a patient has been between 20 and 30 milligrams of melatonin in a day. And definitely with cognitive benefit. Now I haven't clinically studied only the melatonin and cognitive benefit connection, it's an overall protocol that I’ve looked at.

[00:31:20.09] Scott: But do we expect that melatonin has some effect on MSH? Or is there not a connection there? 

[00:31:26.18] Dr. Dahsore: That would be reversed. Because MSH from the hypothalamus is very important for melatonin production in the paleo gland, is it not? One thing that I heard from Dr. Shippen that really resonated with me, right? When I hear about high doses of melatonin and melatonin theoretically helping improve MSH, I haven't heard from any peer that they've seen a rise in MSH with just high-dose melatonin. But one thing that Dr. Shippen mentioned that really resonated with me, was he explained the difference between physiological dosing and pharmaceutical dosing. And he was discussing the various side effects of regular hormone replacement therapy, versus bio-identical hormone replacement therapy.

And physiological dosing would mean that giving the patient only what is required to supplement the effects of disease. Meaning, if the body for example needs like a hundred milligrams of something a day, and due to illness, the body is only able to produce 50 milligrams. Then the physiological dosage for that person would be only 50 milligrams.

Even taking into consideration malabsorption etc. right? It would be prudent to use a physiological dosage, whereas a pharmaceutical dosage would be hey, let's just give the patient whatever the daily requirement is, which is 100 milligrams. Thinking and hoping that the body will be able to eliminate the excess, and that doesn't always happen. So I just wanted to add that.

[00:33:15.24] Scott: In the book, you make the connection between PANS and PANDAS and CIRS or Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. You point out that children with PANS and PANDAS almost always are also dealing with CIRS.

You mentioned that at the beginning of our conversation as well. Does that mean that mold is always part of the picture, or water damage building exposure always being part of the picture? And do you think that some abnormal Cunningham panels or Neural Zoomer panels could be the result of mold exposure?

[00:33:47.09] Dr. Dahsore: They could be, yes. In 2015, I spoke at Dr. Shoemaker’s CIRS conference in Phoenix, and I spoke about the PANS/ASD connection that I see in my practice. Now Scott McMahon approached me there, that's the first time I met him. Since he is also a pediatrician himself, and that's where our mutual collaboration, friendship began.

Then in 2016 at Autism One, I think I was the first practitioner to ever speak about the CIRS and autism connection, mostly due to my personal experience and the dramatic difference a CIRS treatment made in Brian’s life. Scott was working on a study to look at common mechanisms seen in PANS and CIRS and he found them. In patients with CIRS, the brain multinuclear atrophy seen, some of the nuclei, caudate nucleus, amygdala, commonly involved are part of the basal ganglia. Now PANS/PANDAS research as we know shows a strong basal ganglia molecular mimicry mechanism at play. So logically, if the patient was exposed to mold and has CIRS, once CIRS is treated that eliminates a huge trigger. Sometimes the only trigger left to eliminate for those kids who have been treated every which way for pans, PANDAS but keep relapsing. So these kids can now finally recover and heal.

What's even more interesting, I have so far reviewed four Cunningham panels from adults with CIRS, all positive and also diagnosed with a major neurodegenerative condition, that was the connection. They were also diagnosed with ALS, Parkinson’s. I vividly recall a 38-year-old farmer from Pennsylvania, father of two little twin boys with PANS that I was treating. He presented with a sudden onset of swallowing difficulty, blurred vision, and a mild slurring of speech, that's it.

No other symptoms whatsoever. He was in very good shape, physically was able to work long days with no trouble. Long story short, he was diagnosed with progressive ALS, given a few years to live, a ton of medications and that's it. He approached me since I was treating his kids, and we started to dig deep. We found Borellia, Bartonella along with CIRS from a huge continuous mold exposure of several years.

His primary agreed to run a Cunningham panel for additional information, and his panel report was very much positive. So now a few months after this, I was invited to speak in the UK and Madeleine Cunningham was speaking in the same panel as well. So perfect opportunity, I was able to get the conversation started. I’m hoping to explore this further.

[00:36:43.17] Scott: So just to clarify, when we say that there is a strong connection between PANS, PANDAS, and CIRS, would you say that the majority then of children with PANS or PANDAS also have a mold component, or could it be other triggers for CIRS like Lyme disease?

[00:36:59.03] Dr. Dahsore: Both. It is hard to generalize, but it is best to explore all of the triggers. Now, I would say in over 80 percent of kids with PANS, I have seen a CIRS connection, CIRS with a mold connection.

[00:37:18.15] Scott: Okay, beautiful. So that is a high, so 80 percent of children that you've seen with PANS or PANDAS do have a mold component to their PANS or PANDAS presentation.

[00:37:27.29] Dr. Dahsore: Correct. You also have to keep in mind, that is generally the kind of patient population that I attract. 

[00:37:36.05] Scott: Let's talk a little bit about transcriptomics or the GENIE test. I’m wondering if you're using that in your clinical practice. What the issues might be that it can identify in terms of the fingerprint that in a particular person can look at the expression of certain genes, and suggest the area that treatment focus may be most helpful. How has genie changed the work that you do?

[00:38:01.05] Dr. Dahsore: So what I know so far is proteomics and transcriptomics is where the heart of both disease expression and disease treatment is when it comes to CIRS. The transcriptome constitutes the complete set of all RNA molecules, coding, the non-coding ones, and the proteome refers to the complete set of proteins that is expressed in an organelle, a cell type, or a tissue under a specific set of conditions like for example CIRS.

Although the transcriptome makes up I think less than four percent of the total cell RNA. It is considered the most significant component because it contains the coding RNAs that specify the composition of the proteome and hence determine the biochemical capacity of the cell, that's very important. Proteomics typically gives us a better understanding of an organism more than genomics.

So with GENIE, we can obtain tremendously valuable information with regards to the best therapeutic interventions for that particular patient, if there are any ongoing bacterial or viral infections. Any differential gene activation, and or suppression that's involved. And even a much better understanding of the defective antigen presentation mechanism, with your innate immune cells that is seen in CIRS patients. So with all of this information to learn, I’m looking forward to learning more.

[00:39:46.09] Scott: Yes, and the GENIE test as I understand it is looking at expression of genes, where all SNP testing as I understand it is looking at the potential for a problem to exist. But not actual function or expression. And so this transcriptomics is taking things further, and looking how are your genes actually expressing. Not what is the potential for you to have a problem, but do you have a problem, or do you have a particular expression of a group of genes.

[00:40:17.16] Dr. Dahsore: Exactly.

[00:40:18.25] Scott: In the book, you mentioned that some parents think their child is healthy because they don't have any fevers. I’ve heard adults talk about this that well, hey I haven't had a cold or flu in the last 10 years. But that may not actually represent a healthy state. That when people start improving and become healthier, and their immune system becomes more fortified and able to correctly respond, that oftentimes people will get a series of colds and flus.

It seems a little counterintuitive, and so I’m wondering if you can talk to us about that. And I’ve always wondered what happens to the microbes that we come into contact with when the immune system is unable to respond? Are they accumulating in the body, and becoming then more chronic?

[00:41:02.00] Dr. Dahsore: Yes, they are. That has been a personal and professional experience. A microbe will accumulate, and eventually, the immune system crashes. I remember if I may use my son's example again, I have many, but most people seem to resonate well with my personal experience. We had a hindsight multiple strep infections, but because of immunosuppression due to gestational transfer of Lyme, we never really mounted a high fever.

The only test ever done was a throat swab, no medication was ever recommended until the, but the bacteria accumulated, the body became autoimmune we started seeing a complete crash at around six and a half years of age. We developed unrelated symptoms like a cough. Now, this was a dry cough, we investigated every which way, nobody had any answers. All kinds of allergy, immunology, gastrointestinal infectious disease physicians.

The best they could give me was it is a cough variant asthma type syndrome, and we had to steroid the heck out of it. I mean what else, right? Steroids are sold like candy, they're actually cheaper than antibiotics nowadays. But long story short when Dr. Trifiletti evaluated for PANS, he does intensive lab work. And we found that Mycoplasma, the IgG was 8,000, Scott. The IgM was about 8,900 which is high too, but IgG was 8,000. And in fact actually no wait, only the IgG was high, at this point IgM wasn't even showing. Long story short, we treated the so-called asthma of three years was gone, it's never come back. Microbes like Borrelia act upon host immunity to bring about immunosuppression.

I like to establish a good past history of wellness or illness as the case may be. Now fevers are an important aspect of an intact and robust immune response. If a highly symptomatic person has a poor history of a good fever response, that's information with respect to what direction to further explore regarding that person's treatment. Now, if a person full of vitality, energy, and joy hasn't had a fever for a few years is not a concern for the most part.

I don't know if you caught a couple research studies in the spring of 2018 that came out Scott, that talked about Mycoplasma being able to suppress the IgM in the host. And it's very interesting because I often see a lot of IgG positives. Labs will give you various reference ranges, right? From x to x is considered negative, from such and such is indeterminate, and from such and such is considered positive for IgG and the lab will flag it.

I’ve often seen primary care physicians, even specialists just let that go because all medical school training comes into play. That hey, IgG is all past infection, versus looking upon extremely high IgG numbers like Dr. Trifiletti had looked at and treating. Understanding that that's a chronic accumulated ongoing infection, and it could be an important sign of immune suppression.

[00:44:47.17] Scott: And to your point, if there's low IgM, ideally you would also look at total IgM. Because if the person can't mount an IgM response, then that could be a false negative result, right?

[00:45:00.21] Dr. Dahsore: Correct.

[00:45:01.10] Scott: What role do you think that NeuroQuant plays in terms of your diagnosis and treatment of biotoxin illness? And do you see changes in the brain with regards to white and gray matter post-treatment?

[00:45:13.23] Dr. Dahsore: It's played a big role on the patients that have been able to afford the NeuroQuant. The research of course is rock solid. Now there have been only three that have actually gone back for post-treatment NeuroQuant, and all three have shown tremendous benefit from only plant-based treatments, right? So neuroplasticity-wise, the oldest was a 22-year-old patient from upstate New York.

His neurologist in her notes reported that he had refused all allopathic medication in favor of herbal, and she had documented his NeuroQuant abnormality scene. After 11 months of treatment, like for my son, it took two and a half years on conventional treatment. So this young man's NeuroQuant came back clean. It was fantastic to see the neurologist's notes where she declared his NeuroQuant as clear and attributed the brain recovery to BioNexus herbal treatment.

So that is important to mention that plant-based treatment can help people with CIRS. Many patients come to me, and they are extremely depressed that you know what, we have a child with autism, we cannot do allopathic because of gut issues. Or we believe in completely naturopathic, do we have to go the allopathic route?

Now for those who have not been able to do neuro quant, clinical symptom resolution has been the benchmark for evaluating success of therapy, in faraway countries even like Norway, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, India, Australia, Qatar. I mean I see people from over 50 countries. And we've seen remarkable cognitive and behavioral improvements in children with autism. 

[00:47:00.03] Scott: There is a major focus on SNPs, the genetic potential. And yet people like Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt suggest that genes change very slowly and thus they cannot alone explain the rise in chronic illnesses that we're seeing today.

In the book, you talk about diet, pollutants, pesticides, herbicides, mycotoxins many of the environmental toxins that act on the expression of our genes through epigenetics or the epigenome. I’m interested in your thoughts on how important the epigenome is versus the genetic SNP or potential for some type of problem.

[00:47:36.15] Dr. Dahsore: Here, the GENIE gives us a lot of useful information with regards to that. You mentioned just a little while ago, about the actual expression of genes being more important than the potential for thereof.

So epigenetic exposure especially for growing children can be significant triggers for clinical manifestation and prolonged morbidity. Personally, I tend not to focus on snips. As they typically just end up generating a lot of fear and anxiety. I feel it's important to keep that information in the back of your mind. But treating the root cause takes precedence.

[00:48:13.27] Scott: And it's interesting kind of extending on that, the concept of MTHFR. And that's something that people will go off and test, and then right away they're online saying oh, my pathways are blocked, I’m broken essentially, this is my big problem. But that may not always be the case.

And then one of the challenges is if you have MTHRF issues, and then you jump into supporting methylation in a way that is not thoughtful and planned and slow and low in terms of the introduction. That potentially in some cases can make things worse.

So maybe you can talk to us a little bit about whether or not supporting methylation aggressively early on in a protocol is a good thing, or potentially problematic. And then why do we need to have even more consideration around the introduction of methyl donors in those that have Epstein-Barr virus.

[00:49:01.11] Dr. Dahsore: I’ve seen too many cases Scott, where methylation support was introduced way too early before addressing the root causes with disastrous effects. From total relapse of PANS, PANDAS to severe neuropsychiatric deterioration.

Often people research online as you mentioned, but are unable to understand the deeper connections. They seek out practitioners who specialize in one specific discipline, namely we are discussing methylation, and oftentimes that is not the right answer for someone dealing with complex chronic illnesses.

MTHFR status is good to know, as a possible variable if the patient experiences major detox reactions, that's the only use I find during early active treatment of CIRS or Lyme. So research has shown that a pharmacologic manipulation of methylation can actually help unmask viral antigens of Epstein-Barr.

So Epstein-Barr virus as we know it is a ubiquitous herpes virus associated with a variety of lymphoid and epithelium tumors. So that is why it is very important to know what you're doing when you're addressing methylation. especially in patients with possible Epstein-Barr symptomatology.

[00:50:20.00] Scott: Yes, I think that's beautiful. Because a lot of times, aggressively supporting methylation, not only can that unload a lot of toxins in the system that the body's not ready to process if the emunctories are not open, and the channels of elimination open, and drainage supported. But then you also have the potential for this viral activation that you have to consider.

And so not something that we want to jump into without giving some real thought to. Let's talk now about the HLA-DR genetics and I’m curious if those are really hardwired, or if they can also be influenced through the epigenome. And then when we look at HLA-DR, do you think of that more as a predictor for the potential to develop a biotoxin illness? Or do you also see a correlation between HLA status and the difficulty in recovering a patient's health?

[00:51:09.26] Dr. Dahsore: Well, I haven't studied the prior, but I see a lot of the latter. Those with dreaded HLA haplotype, the “dreaded”, or the moldy haplotype, do experience a more complicated path to recovery, yes.

[00:51:25.14] Scott: How did you become interested in herbs and creating an integrative treatment approach to CIRS? And are there integrative options for each step of the Shoemaker protocol?

[00:51:36.01] Dr. Dahsore: So Scott, do you recall just before your interview podcast with Stephen Buhner in the spring of 2017. I had been invited and spent about a week with Buhner and his partner Julie. That visit to their mountain home in the presence of these amazing souls, sharing meals, walks, discussions. Julie's herb garden her apothecary, oh my gosh it was just so profound that it sparked the inspiration and confidence I needed to go ahead.

Julie, she is a magician with heartmath healing. She helped with my chakra awakening, and I’m tremendously grateful to the two of them for their friendship, blessings, and guidance. Now Stephen and my family met way back in 2011. Brian was still wheelchair-bound, and he and Stephen hit it off right away. And Stephen’s been a huge guiding force for Brian’s healing. Julie has helped me immensely, both as a mentor and a healer. I lost my mom in 2016, and I almost lost it myself.

Julie and Steven helped me regain my vitality back. Subsequently, Stephen recommended me to be invited to Eastern Europe for a series of physician education lectures using plant-based medicine, and that was spectacular. In fact, I’m saving his email to them in my favor, forever as a treasured item. Soon after, Julie and I presented a practitioner training workshop in the UK. Now, these were all amazing experiences with a lot of practical learning involved.

Simultaneously, more and more patients being referred to me, were the ones very similar to my own son, as in not recovering well, not tolerating conventional therapies for tick-borne infections, CIRS, ASD and so on, and PANS of course. That's when I decided to go ahead and make the protocols that helped Brian heal available to my patients as well. And that's when BioNexus apothecary, along with biodynamic farm came into the picture. For each step of the Shoemaker protocol, there are integrative options definitely, yes.

[00:53:44.08] Scott: Beautiful. With pharmaceutical treatment of Lyme disease for example, if we think of Borrelia, it's often important to take several different types of agents for the different forms of Borrelia. With herbs, that doesn't seem to be the case.

My understanding is that the complexity of the herbs, the constituents, or active ingredients are much broader than a targeted pharmaceutical drug. And I’m wondering if you agree with that, do we think that herbs can be helpful for people with Borrelia persisters for example?

[00:54:14.21] Dr. Dahsore: I would agree. Herbs are definitely useful for Borrelia persisters, along with digging deep to understand the immune mechanisms and the tropism contributing to disease persistence.

[00:54:27.09] Scott: When people take herbs, I often see practitioners maybe say 10 drops twice a day. But sometimes people will change that to 20 drops once a day, just for ease of their program. My observation's been that once-daily dosing of herbs is not generally as effective as twice-daily dosing, and I’m wondering what you've seen.

[00:54:48.00] Dr. Dahsore: Exactly. Sustained immune support, and frequency of intake of herbals is more important than dosage or number of drops. Usually, fewer drops as per tolerance taken multiple times a day are more effective than a large number of drops taken once a day. 

[00:55:05.28] Scott: That makes a lot of sense, yes.

[00:55:07.21] Dr. Dahsore: I mean plant-based treatment requires discipline and commitment.

[00:55:10.23] Scott: When people are taking pharmaceutical medications, and considering incorporation of herbs. How should they best explore the potential for interactions? Are there some resources, I know you actually outline a number of these in your book. Are there some resources that you refer people to explore that?

[00:55:31.06] Dr. Dahsore: There are a few books available that specifically address drug interactions with herbals. I mean all practitioners should have, pick one favorite as a reference. With antibiotics, I find other than keeping a close eye on a number of drops and herxings, it's fairly a smooth process to incorporate herbs. However, with neuropsych medications, it's important to know which herbs can cross the blood-brain barrier, and hence have a possible interactive effects on neurotransmitters.

Like for example lemon balm, shouldn't be given to patients with autoimmune thyroid issues, or the ones doing any kind of thyroid medication until you get to know the patient. Skullcap should not be used with patients doing SSRIs and so on. Obviously, patients doing Disulfiram usually cannot do any alcohol-based herbs.

[00:56:25.06] Scott: So let's then extend on the alcohol conversation. So if people are taking alcohol-based tinctures, maybe there's not a glycerin analog or product that they can use. But they're reactive to alcohol, they need to do disulfiram potentially. How can they best remove the alcohol from these remedies so they can still benefit from them?

[00:56:44.26] Dr. Dahsore: There's never a hundred percent removal since the herbs are extracted as such. But a lot of it can be attenuated with hot water, not boiling, hot water and letting it sit for 20 to 30 minutes. Additionally, making sure they're not dosing on an empty stomach is very helpful. Now I have patients from many countries where this could be a religious exception as well, and it's been fun.

[00:57:12.09] Scott: In the book, you say that one should prepare each dose by succussing or vigorously shaking the remedy and then adding the dose to water. Do you generally recommend against taking drops directly in the mouth? 

[00:57:25.14] Dr. Dahsore: There's no such restriction per se, but I prefer to take the cautious approach with my patients until they are in a much better place.

[00:57:34.09] Scott: In the book, you talk about quanta or quantum aspects of herbs; photons, light, wave emissions, frequency. Does that imply that the benefit of an herbal remedy is not all biochemical, but that there is a physics-based aspect of why herbal remedies might be helping people as effectively as they can?

And I love in the book you even talk about how organic food has, particularly organic food grown without human intervention emits exponentially more photons or light emissions. And so I’m wondering is that also a reason why you're so particular about the sourcing of the herbs in your BioNexus herbals remedies.

[00:58:14.03] Dr. Dahsore: Very much so. Beneficial effects of a properly grown and harvested herbal extract go way beyond just the biochemical effects of its constituent bioactive compounds. Dr. Jagdish Chandra Bose, the original 19th-century scientist, was a plant biologist who demonstrated that plants exhibit emotional responses when subjected to stress.

And he was also a physicist. His work with radio waves, electronics, and wireless communication is probably better known. Currently, there are about 40 scientific groups worldwide working on biophotons. The largest association as you may know Scott is the International Institute of Biophysics in Germany. So according to current developments and research, every living organism emits biophotons or low-level luminescence. Which is light with a wavelength between 200 and 800 nanometers. This light energy is thought to be stored in the DNA during photosynthesis and is transmitted continuously by the cell. It is believed that the bio-photon wave is emitted from the chromatin of the cell nucleus. And also the helix form of the DNA molecule.

Which exhibits the helix form is an ideal geometric shape of a hollow resonator. So that allows it to store light very effectively. Now, it is thought that the higher the level of light energy a cell emits, the greater its vitality and the potential for the transfer of that energy to the individual who consumes it. So significant differences have been found using Kirlian photography, in favor of organically-produced food. There are some pretty cool photographs too, online, they're available online. Now looking at herbs, herbs grow best in the wild, in their native habitat.

Those herbs have tremendous sparkling and remarkable bioactive compounds. Plants have life force that runs through them like just like we do. So respect gratitude, handling with love and care. Regular communication to set your healing intent following moon cycles are some of the practices of spiritual herbalism that go a long way to determine the sheer vitality in an herbal extract. Biodynamic farming is considered beyond organic, and herbal extracts from a source as such are very important, especially when customized blends are compounded for a patient.

And those need to be infused with frequency enhancement techniques, for imprinting or inverting strategies. So all of the points I just mentioned, would apply to spiritual herbalism. Additionally, it's quite possible to prescribe herbs according to Rashi and Rasayana in Sanskrit, which is sun sign and birthstones. Herbal prescriptions can be tailored to the person for spiritual benefit with respect to chakras that need to be charged. Help with deeper aspects of detoxification, even meditation.

[01:01:31.02] Scott: You have formulated a number of herbal tinctures for the various challenges of biotoxin illness. Talk to us about some of the key formulations that you've put together to help regain health and wellness from conditions like CIRS.

[01:01:44.08] Dr. Dahsore: Since BioNexus herbals are currently for practitioners only, I’ll keep this brief, the muscle testing kit is still under development as well. So I have developed over 25 different formulas and blends for biotoxin illness, autism spectrum disorders, tick-borne infections, PANS, PANDAS.

Each co-infection has a two-tier approach, biotoxin illness, PANS, PANDAS, and ASD protocols. Utilize a lot of BioNexus herbals that have been created specifically for those conditions. One example would be the biotoxin protocol utilizes the BTXD blend, Biotoxin Detox Blend, the MCS or mast cell support blend the ISM or immune system modulating blend, and so on.

[01:02:29.10] Scott: Talk to us a little more about the Formula 1 NSB, and do you think that when progress is seen in people with that formula?

Is that from the reduction of MARCoNS, or might it also be that it has some broader effects reducing other bacteria, maybe even colonized fungal organisms in the sinuses from water-damaged buildings for example? I know you mentioned in the book that it has anti-Candida properties.  What about Aspergillus, for example?

[01:02:56.29] Dr. Dahsore: So clinically, I’ve seen eradication of several mold species. But only in a few patients who agreed to run the fungal cultures. Do I have the actual data? The hindrance here is most patients only want to spend money testing MARCoNS, so that's what gets focused on.

The lab study, that was done on Formula 1 by Dr. Musto demonstrated a very high percentage of eradication of MARCoNS with a 3+ strong biofilm and fungal species as well.

[01:03:32.03] Scott: Beautiful. You mentioned in the book not to store your herbs near an electrical outlet. How does that potentially impact the herbals?

[01:03:40.20] Dr. Dahsore: It's just basic EMF protection precaution because it's important to maintain the integrity of the herbs. We just spoke about spiritual herbalism, biophotons along those lines. Away from electrical outlets, wireless devices, cordless phones, and away from direct sunlight is best practice.

Not much can be done for during the shipping process, but since we put in so much effort in harvesting, manufacture, and storage. All of that is so diligently monitored, that once the patient receives them, it's best to continue as much emf protection precautions as you can.

[01:04:21.15] Scott: What are some of the risk factors for poor treatment outcomes that might need to be explored to maximize recovery potential?

[01:04:29.17] Dr. Dahsore: That's got, it's a broad category and can include environmental integrity, toxin exposure, diet, alcohol consumption, sleep, cosmetic procedures, beauty regimes, and so on. So in short, a detailed history is key before attempting to build a viable treatment protocol.

[01:04:49.15] Scott: Absolutely agree. And you go into each of these in detail in your beautiful book, so I highly recommend people get that. In the BioNexus approach, you have seven steps including Foundation Protocols, Gastrointestinal Support, Detoxification Support, Addressing Root Causes, Bio-individualized Repair, Regeneration Protocol, and Optimizing Maintenance and Lifestyle.

So very detailed protocol. We're not going to be able to dig into each one of these in great detail, but I want to get a few thoughts from you on each area. So if we look at step one, the Foundational Protocol, you talk about air, water, diet, stress, nutrition. And then you talk about what's called FAB, or fungal, actinos, and bacteria.

And how important that is in terms of clean air. Actinos being Actinomycetes which is a newer focus in the biotoxin illness discussion. When Actinomycetes is an issue, is the primary intervention to correct the environment? Or is there some aspect of treating the body that needs to be explored for actinos as well?

[01:06:00.22] Dr. Dahsore: I find that there is no separate intervention required. The same cleaning approach, the same therapeutic plan based approach suffices. However, I would like to add that Dr. Shoemaker’s latest academic paper is published, and this paper though technical reports, the metabolic basis of conditions routinely found in CIRS and actinos, and I quote “From metabolic acidosis to brain injury from T-regulatory cell deficiency to pulmonary hypertension. These conditions are a direct effect of a change in energy production by a cell.” This is called as proliferative physiology, and if it is present, health is enormously affected for the worse. Certain exposures, particularly to Actinomycetes and antifungals belonging to the azole class need a closer look.

[01:07:02.22] Scott: You advocate in the book for the removal of gluten, sugar, dairy, soy, and corn in addition to those things that are personal sensitivities. What are some of the top diets that have been helpful for your patient population?

[01:07:16.19] Dr. Dahsore: Mostly modified SCD for the large part with spurts of low amylose. I feel severely restrictive diets can often demoralize a patient. A good balance of supplements, anti-inflammatory, antimicrobial herbals, along with environmental detox go a long way in keeping dietary change requests less stringent.

[01:07:40.20] Scott: You just touched on mitochondria, and one of the tests that you talk about in the book is the MitoSwab for exploring mitochondrial issues. I’m wondering if you've implemented the suggestions from that test, and then repeated testing and seeing confirmation that those issues then have been improved or addressed.

[01:08:01.04] Dr. Dahsore: I’m still learning to correlate MitoSwab and GENIE mitochondrial information. So the mitochondrial hypometabolism information that is generated through GENIE. So I currently don't have enough to elaborate on, I’ve had about three patients that did a repeat swab.

But I don't recall any changes that I saw, even though clinically the patients demonstrated a range of improvements in energy, exercise tolerance, recovery, and endurance. Now one thing that's common in most of my patients is of course financially, they prefer not to repeat any testing that's not covered by insurance. If they are making steady progress.

[01:08:39.23] Scott: When we consider magnesium deficiency, which is so incredibly common. Do you recommend magnesium sulfate or Epsom salt baths or magnesium chloride foot soaks?

[01:08:51.05] Dr. Dahsore: Both are okay, but it's important to use clean filtered water.

[01:08:55.21] Scott: I had a person that I interacted with recently that was using emu oil or emu oil for reducing inflammation. I’m wondering what your clinical experience has been with emu oil. 

[01:09:07.00] Dr. Dahsore: I typically like to rotate beneficial oils, and emu oil is a good option. It's a good source of vitamin K2, it's well-tolerated and of course, it has beneficial fats.

[01:09:20.17] Scott: In step two of your protocol the Gastrointestinal Support, you work on binding mycotoxins, reducing inflammation. What are some of your favorite binders?

[01:09:30.24] Dr. Dahsore: UltraBinder, both regular and sensitive. I use UltraBinder in combination with the BTXD blend and or Formula 7 GDS as in glyphosate detox support. I might even combine that with a Chlorella vulgaris depending on the patient.

So sometimes, we even have to start with basic activated charcoal and work our way up. So as always, it depends on the patient. I also find better clinical response when I simultaneously detoxify and bind different kinds of toxins along with mycotoxin specific binders.

[01:10:11.08] Scott: So for listeners, the UltraBinder products that Dr. Dahsore is referring to are from Quicksilver Scientific if you want to learn more about those.

You talk in the book about camel milk therapy which delivers antibodies or nanobodies, given their small size. Do you find that most people in your practice tolerate camel milk? And do you find it clinically helpful?

[01:10:32.08] Dr. Dahsore: I see best results introducing camel milk when inflammatory markers and symptoms are under control. And antimicrobial therapy is well underway, and herxing is out of the way as well. So starting with flash pasteurized camel milk with slow buildup, with a teaspoon every few days to half a cup twice a day. After that, slow transition to raw camel milk with informed consent.

The antibodies in camel milk are nanobodies, they are very much real and quite powerful. Irresponsible use can result in pretty severe Herx reactions and immune imbalance. It's important to make sure camel milk is being used in an immune-modulating therapeutic manner, and not immune-boosting before the body is ready for that. Unnecessary immune-boosting will obviously increase the severity of autoimmunity that our kids with PANS or ASD, CIRS, or any of the combinations of these diagnoses are already going through.

[01:11:40.10] Scott: That is such an important concept. I often am a little skeptical when I see companies advertising their products as immune-boosting because I feel like they maybe aren't understanding, or maybe they're just appealing to the general public in terms of their understanding.

But I’m personally not interested in immune-boosting, I’m interested in immune modulation and that's what you're saying as well. So that's a very key point.

In step three with Detoxification Support, you talk about supporting the liver, the kidneys, the lymphatic system, the emunctories or channels of elimination. In your detoxification focus, how important is a focus on the extracellular matrix or the interstitium in reducing systemic toxicity?

[01:12:22.22] Dr. Dahsore: As you mentioned, emunctories are organs of elimination. Most of us will immediately think of the bowel as our main organ of elimination, but in fact, there are some other useful paths that the body uses to detoxify and eliminate waste.

The skin is an emunctory as well, we excrete toxins and heavy metals through our skin. Extracellular matrix, so extracellular matrix detoxification is an important aspect before we target any intracellular shifts for the best clinical benefit.

[01:12:55.10] Scott: Beautiful. What are some of your favorite tools in support of detoxification? Are there tools in addition to herbals or homeopathic that you find helpful? Things like maybe castor oil packs or coffee enemas or detox baths, foot baths, what do you find clinically helpful?

[01:13:13.03] Dr. Dahsore: You must have noticed I have so many wonderful recipes in the book. So yes, all of those depending on patient resources. I would like to include things like sauna, light daily exercise to tolerance, Pranayama breathing, different yogic breathing styles. Foot patches, PEMF, ionic footbaths, these can all help with the detoxification depending on your financial bandwidth.

[01:13:42.19] Scott: I felt like I was at Toys R Us when you were reading all those things off, I’m like yes, I like that, yes, I like that.

You talk about the need for a digital detox. I knew of a child that would have seizures every time their iPad was taken away because they had become so entrained to needing to have that stimulation. So what are some of the tools that you find most helpful for addressing EHS, particularly that you work with a lot of children?

[01:14:10.08] Dr. Dahsore: The one and only tool that works really well is parental discipline. Most moms and dads seem to find a way to reduce screen time. It's very interesting, those who have children with sports injuries, who've unfortunately experienced some kind of head injury with football or soccer. When you go to the ER, even the most basic resident will tell you stay off-screen time for about a week because of concussion, it'll increase inflammation.

Now our PANS kids, what do they have? They pretty much have semi-permanent concussion, don't they? So it is very important to minimize screen time. I do understand withdrawal reactions. In fact, that happened to one of my patients, who went into a grand mouse seizure, right in the middle of a video game with his friend. His friend freaked out, his mom came down to the basement, she saw what was going on and he is still on anti-seizure medication. And I believe I have his case study in the book as well. So digital detox is extremely important.

[01:15:30.27] Scott: In step four, Addressing Root Causes, you explore the various infections. You explore CIRS, MARCoNS, dental issues other components of potential root causes.

Once you've done all of the preparation work, how difficult do you find it is to manage the microbial burden? My observation over the years has been the more foundational work that's done, the less aggressive the microbial support needs to be. What's your experience?

[01:15:56.02] Dr. Dahsore: It's not necessarily that the microbial support needs to be less aggressive. What I find is that the Herxing reaction, the die-off reaction sometimes even detox reactions tend to be much milder if you have a proper step-by-step approach. That's why I like to say it's important to find the practitioner, it's important to be a practitioner that understands the full 360.

[01:16:27.02] Dr. Dahsore: In step 5, Bio-individualized Repair, the book does not really detail this step. What are some of the things that you think about in this category?

[01:16:36.04] Dr. Dahsore: Yes, there aren't a lot of details simply because of the word bio-individualized. So repair consists of using herbal medicine to help repair any remaining multi-organ physiological damage. For example, the lung support LS blend is used at this stage for a CIRS and a Babesia patient, as an example.

[01:17:02.23] Scott: In step six, the Regeneration Protocol, you mentioned biotoxin illness as a lifelong condition with flares during re-exposures. How close do you think we are to having better solutions that can remove this blind spot from our immune systems?

[01:17:18.27] Dr. Dahsore: Three things, one is GENIE will be very helpful in this arena. Dr. Shoemaker has said it may help find a cure, so we should stay tuned. Second is the Daily OM blend, and the Immune System Modulating blend. Those are very helpful, those are the two blends that many patients stay on for a while before they graduate to just one blend as maintenance. 

[01:17:50.01] Scott: You mentioned in the book that elevated reverse T3, can be an indication of low adrenal function, which I think is really important to consider. Do you see adrenal support reducing reverse T3 in your clients?

[01:18:03.06] Dr. Dahsore: The distinction here is more functional, versus purely lab oriented. And yes, I do see better RT3 regulation with adrenal support. It's important to keep in mind that our point of reference is CIRS and biotoxin illness, and early in the illness as MSH begins to fall, high ACTH is associated with a few symptoms. A marked increase in symptoms is associated with a fall in ACTH, dysregulation is usually corrected with proper therapy.

But any kind of adrenal hormone dysregulation impacts thyroid as well. Periods of prolonged stress can cause an increase in cortisol levels, and as the adrenal glands respond to this stress, the high cortisol levels inhibit the conversion of T4 into the active T3. And sometimes that T4 can be shuttled into the production of inactive reverse T3. So it's important to look at reverse T3, and thank you Dr. Shippen for pointing me in the right direction with this.

[01:19:14.09] Scott: The final step seven is Optimizing Maintenance and Lifestyle. I’ve seen a number of young people over the years that had their healing journey through Lyme and mold, they've gotten well. They go off to college and have a serious relapse often due to mold in their dorm or their classrooms. I know Brian is now in college.

What are some of the things that you think about that are required in terms of special consideration to minimize any potential environmental factors leading to a return of symptoms? And what do you recommend for those that are just heading off to school to maintain their regained health?

[01:19:49.29] Dr. Dahsore: Brian’s 504 plan was carried forward to college. So we have air purifiers in every lecture hall, they keep us posted on any leakage issues if any. They okayed off-campus housing, we had to look for a new construction apartment. We have reasonable accommodations in place with the building maintenance.

Anyone going that route needs to make sure that the apartment has it's own HVAC, that the filters are changed monthly. That it's far away from smart meters, plenty of sunshine, fresh air, outdoor access. Minimal stuff in the apartment no carpets, no rugs. Home-cooked meals, exercise, and a few good friends, phew. That wasn't easy. It took us four months during COVID lockdown to get everything in place, and it still requires continuous monitoring. It helps that Brian is cognizant of all of these factors.

[01:20:46.29] Scott: And I didn't really want to give it away too early, but Brian is now in medical school. And his own journey and challenge through his younger years, I just can't wait to see how he changes the world and changes the health of so many people to follow. And so that's certainly an exciting, beautiful thing that's come out of yours and his challenges over the many years.

[01:21:11.11] Dr. Dahsore: Yes, thank you.

[01:21:14.18] Scott: Once somebody is treated for biotoxin illness in your practice, do you find that they can stop all their protocols, maintain their health? Or is there a need for ongoing detoxification, ongoing microbial support? What does the word maintenance mean to you?

[01:21:29.12] Dr. Dahsore: Maintenance is usually for about a year, can be longer for some. But usually close monitoring for a year with minimal maintenance protocol that addresses the patient's key issues, with the one-on-one follow-up at six months.

If the patient remains symptom-free, I usually suggest a protocol for insect bites, for mold exposure and remind them it's important to embrace their new normal. To exercise vigilance, diet discipline are key. Now discharge patients just seem to love touching base, and running a basic Marcon's nasal swab and other basic tests once a year. It's wonderful in itself to meet up with success stories again.

[01:22:11.01] Scott: Absolutely. Tissue salts or cell salts or tools that you mentioned in the book that can help with the membranes, with oxygenation, with detoxification. You mentioned one of my favorites as well the UNDA Mélange cell salts, and I’m wondering if those are something that you commonly use in patients. And what are some of the shifts that you see with the incorporation of cell salts?

[01:22:31.17] Dr. Dahsore: Many CIRS patients experience excessive thirst with the ADH dysregulation, and with little relief even with frequent consumption of good quality water. I’ve seen tissue cell salts help mitigate that issue. The other benefits include deep hydration of cell membranes and the assistant detoxification of the cellular matrix that we just spoke about.

[01:22:57.03] Scott: The next few questions as we begin wrapping up our questions from our listeners. First one, I heard Dr. Dahsore say there are two universal truths. One is unconditional love and one is fear, and they cannot coexist. I’m curious as a parent of a child with complex chronic health issues, what were some of the things that helped Dr. Dahsore choose love over fear and ultimately help both her and her son heal from Lyme disease? 

[01:23:25.17] Dr. Dahsore: Wow, okay, beautiful.

[01:23:27.00] Scott: Now we're getting deep.

[01:23:28.29] Dr. Dahsore: Beautiful. Personally, I found out that don't expect people to understand, because nothing hits home unless it hits your home, and that holds true for most people. Sometimes, reaching rock bottom can be a blessing in disguise. When you're at the end of your rope, your past blocking belief system is able to fade away, and you become more open-minded to alternative pathways.

I often hear this from parents who have found their way to me, after trying the more readily available popular options. It's that moment of clarity when you know it's time to take it to the next level, to let go of fears and self-limiting beliefs, and try something new for your child or even your own health. Mothers and caregivers become so used to giving selflessly, they often forget to nourish their own selves, I find this so often. Many are suffering from chronic illnesses themselves, along with PTSD for years on end.

It's important to understand that your outer world reflects your inner world. If you are agitated by things that are beyond your control, it's important to understand that is futile. Loving thoughts take you from being worried about mental health to building mental wealth and spiritual strength. Think about it, what have you done today to build that wealth?

When was the last time you went a whole day feeling awake, light, limber, energized, strong, full of hope your child will pick up on your state of mind? If you have been blessed with resources and an intellect that can help you find the right kind of practitioner, it's a huge blessing, go for it. Get all the guidance and support you can get, and proceed one day at a time would be my best advice, that's what I did.

[01:25:28.15] Scott: And it worked beautifully. A listener asked if there is a connection between inflammation of the sinuses during periods of allergy or congestion, or what we've seen recently here on the west coast, poor air quality that can lead to an increase in motor or verbal ticks in children. And how would you approach that specific issue?

[01:25:49.26] Dr. Dahsore: Motor and verbal tics can increase with EMF exposure. They can increase with chlorine pools when our kids swim in the pools. Personal and professional experience. Poor air quality yes, VOCs, mycotoxins.

CIRS is a huge trigger for PANS as I mentioned earlier. Periods of allergy can involve mast cells, and as also was touched upon earlier as to how mast cells and other sentinel cells, and defective pattern recognition receptors can trigger autoimmunity. So testing and treating for MARCoNS is an extremely important aspect in people with pre-existing allergies and sinus issues, it's an important aspect to explore.

[01:26:38.22] Scott: A listener observed that the gut is one of the first areas that goes south after a mold exposure. Question being how do you stabilize or maintain intestinal health to better withstand the small exposures of day-to-day life after someone has gone through their treatment protocol?

[01:26:55.26] Dr. Dahsore: So gut health is all in the diet and a lifestyle that incorporates mindfulness, minimalism, and gratitude. It all requires discipline and happily adapting to the new normal. Diet, the most anti-inflammatory but still the least restrictive for you, it takes time to find that balance, but it's quite possible. Keep your favorite binder, MARCoNS treatment and gut support handy at all times, because exposures can occur inadvertently, and the sooner you can address them the better.

[01:27:29.05] Scott: With most of your work being in children programs like Annie Hopper's DNRS or Ashok Gupta's The Gupta program may be difficult to incorporate. What are your thoughts on the role of the limbic system in these conditions? And does a focus on the limbic system lead to your patients arriving at higher ground?

[01:27:47.07] Dr. Dahsore: I work with people of all ages oftentimes from granddaughter to grandmother as families join their loved ones in recovering their health. For pediatrics, kids over 10 years of age and adults seem to do well with tapping, Emotional Freedom Technique, counseling, and of course spiritual herbal support.

The Art of Living Foundation has a wonderful program called as the Happiness Program, they have a pediatric version as well. We've experienced both of these, Brian and I, and the best shifts with mindfulness, yoga, transcendental meditation, art of living happiness program, and of course as I mentioned, herbal support.

[01:28:29.03] Scott: With the 2020 that we all just had, I think we all need a happiness program, that's so important right now.

Regarding mother's intuition, how did your intuition factor into the relationship that you had with your son throughout his journey? And how does your intuition impact your work with other practitioners?

[01:28:48.01] Dr. Dahsore: A mother's connection to her child is a thing of wonder and it's very real. I have deep respect for a mother's intuition, especially with autistic children. They develop a system, they are able to read the untold truth in the child's eyes, understand inner turmoil from body language, I know I did. The voice of your soul is only as loud as your willingness to listen.

I’ve lost count of instances when a mom's instinct has been bang on from underlying symptoms like pain in non-verbal children to deciphering body language and prioritizing treatment options accordingly. My intuition, how does it impact my work with other practitioners? Now, it has been a personal, spiritual, and awakening journey for many years. Healing the inner child, healing my own personal turmoil belief systems, doing a lot of shadow work.

And that I think is important for every practitioner especially those who work with energy medicine. So that when you utilize tools like bio-resonance, muscle testing, you are able to vibrate at a much higher energetic level than your patient. And that is the only time when your immune system, your field will be able to obtain accurate information from your patient's energy field.

[01:30:24.02] Scott: You say in chronic illness, the systems have resigned themselves to the fight, to heal the patient needs to awaken their systems with a mindful willingness to change and recover. Can you elaborate a bit on that? And how do we awaken our systems with this mindful willingness?

[01:30:42.22] Dr. Dahsore: Mindfulness is a buzzword, it needs to be understood. And mindfulness should be made into a manifesto I think. Mindfulness does not mean trying to just block every negative thought that you get, that's a nearly impossible task. It's best to acknowledge all your thoughts, watch them flow, try and change some to loving thoughts and infuse hope and light into them. Over time, one will notice that these thoughts naturally decrease and meditation efforts get deeper.

Don't identify yourself as a patient, rather as a person with unlimited potential. It's best not to surround yourself with people who are emotionally toxic, it's better to be with people who strengthen you and support you, instead of narcissists who can actually feed off emotional ups and downs.

Many healers, energy workers, and light workers, and sensitive patients are empaths and unconsciously absorb a lot of undesirable emotions and toxic energy. It's very important to detoxify from numerous narcissistic forces, toxic forces around us in order to maintain our QI at its brightest.

[01:32:05.14] Scott: Wow, so good. I want you to tell our listeners about your new book, where people can find it. I have it here the BioNexus Approach, Biotoxin Illness, A Step-by-step Guide to Sustainable Plant-based Treatment Options.

It is a big book as you can see, it's wonderful, beautifully written. Lots of practical recipes. It's not actually overwhelming as big as it looks, I found it to be a wonderful, pleasant read. And just share with us a little bit about the book and where people can access that.

[01:32:38.40] Dr. Dahsore: Thank you, Scott, yes. The book is available on my website. The hardcover, the signed hardcover is available on the website. And it is also available in the paperback form on Amazon. It is available on Amazon in other countries as well, so please check Amazon. I do want to point out that don't expect this to be a self-help book, I don't advocate that. It's a self-education book for sure. It can be utilized by practitioners, as well as well-researched patients or those who are interested in understanding the plant-based options for treating biotoxin illness.

[01:33:25.29] Scott: My last question is the same for every guest, and that is what are some of the key things that you do on a daily basis in support of your own health?

[01:33:33.08] Dr. Dahsore: Scott, I have a wonderful broad-spectrum support called Daily OM blend. The Daily OM blend I use daily, along with mindfulness, meditation. A vegan organic gluten-free diet, sunshine, spending time outdoors rain or shine. EMF protection, regular digital emotional detox. As a practitioner, I think it's important to be passionate about what you do.

However, I feel it's far more important than passion in your work, is to be compassionate for your patient. Compassion for your patient. Taking the time to getting to know your client, being there for them will allow you to experience success, more success stories and there is nothing like revisiting with a client or listening to a client at follow up, and understanding the life-changing benefit your presence and your therapies have had in their life. I practice what I preach, I try to, I should say I try to.

[01:34:47.15] Scott: I think you do that. This has been such a fantastic conversation. It's been an honor for me to be witness to the journey that you and Brian have had from when I first met him, when maybe he was about eight years old to now when he's in medical school and has recovered and wants to take his journey and help other people, and help the world.

And help to minimize the suffering that so many people struggle through. And so I just want to thank you for sharing so generously today of your time, for putting your journey and all of these amazing resources and concepts into this beautiful book. It's just a fantastic resource, I urge people to get it. But I really want to honor you and thank you so much for all that you're doing. Not for just your patients, but for everyone that is dealing with a condition and biotoxin illness, so thank you so much Dr. Dahsore. 

[01:35:42.18] Dr. Dahsore: My pleasure, thank you for having me.

[01:35:45.16] To learn more about today's guest, visit BioNexusHealth.com. That's BioNexusHealth.com, BioNexusHealth.com.

[01:35:56.13] Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a positive rating or review as doing so will help the show reach a broader audience. To follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or MeWe, you can find me there as better health guy.

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[01:36:31.20] Thanks for listening to this BetteHealthGuy Blogcast, with Scott, your Better Health Guy. To check out additional shows and learn more about Scott's personal journey to better health, please visit BetterHealthGuy.com.

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  BetterHealthGuy.com is intended to share my personal experience in recovering from my own chronic illness.  Information presented is based on my journey working with my doctors and other practitioners as well as things I have learned from conferences and other helpful resources.  As always, any medical decisions should be made only with the guidance of your own personal medical authority.  Everyone is unique and what may be right for me may not be right for others.