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In this episode, you will learn about the importance of fats that heal in supporting health.
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About My Guest
My guest for this episode is Udo Erasmus. The legendary Udo Erasmus is the co-founder of the Udo's Choice line, which can be found in Whole Foods and other health food stores worldwide. Udo designed the machinery for making oils with health in mind and pioneered flax oil, a billion-dollar industry. However, Udo walked a difficult path to become the man he is today. Being a child of war, Udo's life began with intense struggle. As an adult, he got pesticide poisoning in 1980, leaving doctors at a loss regarding treatment. Deciding to take his health into his own hands, Udo began researching, and his discoveries led him to a passion for finding the answers to life's big questions which would hopefully one day bring him and the world peace. Today, Udo is an acclaimed speaker and author of many books, including the best-selling "Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill" which has sold over 250,000 copies. He teaches at events hosted by Tony Robbins and Deepak Chopra, has keynoted an international brain health conference, and has traveled to over 30 countries to conduct thousands of live presentations, media interviews, and staff trainings impacting more than 25,000,000 lives with his message on oils, health, peace, nature, and human nature. Udo has an extensive education in biochemistry, genetics, biology, and nutrition, including a master's degree in counseling psychology.
- What are the symptoms of healing fat deficiency?
- What is the best ratio of omegas?
- Can some people have problems converting ALA and LA to EPA and DHA?
- Where does fish oil come from? Would Udo ever use fish oil?
- How can one test for their fatty acid deficiencies?
- Does fat make us fat?
- What impact does olive oil have on health?]
- Can sunflower, sesame, and safflower oil be healthy?
- When might one want to consider Evening Primrose, Borage, or Black Currant Seed oil?
- How bad is canola oil?
- How important is it to have a focus on increasing fat assimilation?
- Can antioxidants help minimize the impact of oxidized fats?
- Can fats help with detoxification?
- Are fats able to support the body against infections?
- Might fats minimize the potential of future neurodegenerative conditions like MS and Alzheimer's?
- Do fats play a role in hypercoagulation?
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June 8, 2021
Transcript Disclaimer: Transcripts are intended to provide optimized access to information contained in the podcast. They are not a full replacement for the discussion. Timestamps are provided to facilitate finding portions of the conversation. Errors and omissions may be present as the transcript is not created by someone familiar with the topics being discussed. Please Contact Me with any corrections.
[00:00:01.05] Welcome to BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts, empowering your better health. And now, here's Scott, your Better Health Guy.
[00:00:13.29] The content of this show is for informational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any illness or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or as information to facilitate self-treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health-related decisions with your own personal medical authority.
[00:00:34.03] Scott: Hello everyone, and welcome to episode number 147 of the BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts series. Today's guest is Udo Erasmus, and the topic of the show is Fats That Heal. The legendary Udo Erasmus is the co-founder of the Udo's Choice line, which can be found in Whole Foods and other health food stores worldwide.
Udo designed the machinery for making oils with health in mind and pioneered flax oil, a billion-dollar industry. However, Udo walked a different path to become the man he is today. Being a child of war, Udo's life began with intense struggle.
As an adult, he got pesticide poisoning in 1980, leaving doctors at a loss regarding treatment. Deciding to take his health into his own hands, Udo began researching, and his discoveries led him to a passion for finding the answers to life's big questions, which would hopefully one day bring him and the world peace.
Today, Udo is an acclaimed speaker and author of many books, including the best-selling “Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill”, which has sold over 250,000 copies.
He teaches at events hosted by Tony Robbins and Deepak Chopra has keynoted an international brain health conference and has traveled to over 30 countries to conduct thousands of live presentations, media interviews, and staff trainings, impacting more than 25 million lives with his message on oils, health, peace, nature, and human nature.
Udo has an extensive education in biochemistry, genetics, biology, and nutrition, including a Master's degree in counseling psychology. And now, my interview with Udo Erasmus.
I am a big believer in healthy fats and literally take tablespoons of fat a day. One of the pioneers in this realm is Udo Erasmus, and for the record, I did not twist Udo's arm to be here today; it was Udo's choice, pun intended.
[00:02:40.26] Udo Erasmus: You're getting better already.
[00:02:43.19] Scott: Thanks for being here today, Udo.
[00:02:45.27] Udo Erasmus: Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:48.05] Scott: Talk to us about your personal health journey and how that led you to the passion that you clearly have today for healthy fats, including being the creator of flaxseed oil and the healthy fat movement.
[00:03:00.07] Udo Erasmus: Yes. So the long story is I was born during the second world war, and I had rickets when I was a kid. We went hungry a lot; I was a refugee kid when I was not quite three yet. Fleeing from the communists, chasing us in tanks and trucks.
And the allies, which they're supposed to be the good guys, we were like women and children, young children on horse-drawn hay wagons down dirt roads out of Poland into Germany.
And the allies were using the refugees as target practice, shooting at us from planes. So, my mother, the wagon broke down, my mother decided to go through the fields, and she had six kids with her; they were all six and under. But she couldn't take six kids through the fields, the fields were safer, but she couldn't handle six kids. So, she left four of us behind.
So, I ended up in an orphanage, and eventually, her sister, when she found out what happened, went back behind enemies lines and dug us out because she spoke fluent Russian and fluent German. And so anyway, I was more shy; I think I would have said not so much physically ill other than the rickets from vitamin D deficiency.
But very shy, very nervous, didn't know what I could trust, never felt safe. Read a lot of books, because books were safe. Even a book about war, nobody's shooting at you, right? So it's a nice ersatz world. And when I got to education, I got into science because I wanted to understand how things work because I give me a certain amount of predict and control. Then I got into biosciences to understand how creatures work.
Then I got into psychology, how thinking works. Then I got into medicine, how health works because it's called healthcare. And I found out very quickly it's all about disease management, so I went to the dean and said, well, what is health? He said, “We don't know; we're working on it”.
And I realized that I was going to learn more in about health in biology where you study normal creatures in normal situations, then I was going to find out finding medicine.
And I wasn't interested in the degree; I was interested in the knowledge, right? And so, because they only focus on disease, they're not actually studying health; you don't get to know light by looking into darkness. You want to know what light is; you got to look at the light.
Well, health is the same way; you don't learn health by studying disease; you learn health by looking at health. So I got into biochemistry and genetics, and then I left because I was still missing something. And the way I explained it is since when I was 17, my heart started to ache, I had this uncomfortable feeling in my chest, and it wasn't physical, but there was something missing.
And so I went in search of that. That's the background, then I got married and had three kids, and I had a job as a pesticide sprayer. After my marriage broke up, I wanted to kill something, so I got a job as a pesticide sprayer because the pesticides are made to kill things, and I did that really carelessly for three years, and I got poisoned by the pesticides I sprayed, predictable outcome. Went to the doctor, said what do you have for pesticide poisoning, she said nothing.
And that day, the penny really dropped; it's like, oh yes, my health is my responsibility, and if I don't pay attention to it, maybe nobody does. The doctor gets paid even if I die. So then I said, okay, well, I have the background, so let me try and figure it out.
And the first thing obviously, stop flooding the basement, right? Stop praying pesticides, obviously, but I was sick. I was 38 years old, and if I walked around a city block, I had to rest. So it was like 80 years old. And then, I got into the research journals; there were 600,000 research studies on fats, nutrition and health nutrition, and disease.
And then I got stuck on fats because I was looking at everything. I got stuck on fats because they were contradictory; they were confusing. Like one thing was I read, omega-6 is an essential fatty acid that you have to have for health and that your body can't make, so you have to bring it in from outside.
And then the next study says, oh yes, and by the way, omega-6 gives you cancer and kills you, and I was like how can that be, right? You eat it for health, and you die. It's like that doesn't make any sense, and it drove me crazy.
And it forced me to look deeper, and what I found out is that most of the problems we blame on fats, especially in the oils, the omega-6 and omega-3. Most of the problems we blame on omega-6 is oils, are actually the result of damage done by processing, both by the industry, which treats them with Drano window washing acid, then bleaches them, then they go rancid and stink, so then they have to be deodorized. I used to call it de-stinkerized and just to make the point.
And when you do that, about one percent of the molecules is damaged. And in one tablespoon of an oil that is one percent damaged by this treatment, you get 60 quintillion damaged molecules, 60 quintillion. That's like more than a million for every one of the body's 60 trillion cells in one tablespoon.
One percent damage. I mean, one percent doesn't sound like much, right? But then you take two to four tablespoons on average. And then not only that, but you also throw them in the frying pan, and then they're damaged even more by the simultaneous damaging effects of light, oxygen, and heat on those oils.
And one of the big take-homes is that oils or the omega-6 and omega-3 essential fatty acids are the most sensitive of all of our nutrients to damage. They should get the most care because they're perishable. And we give them the least care because we don't take anything else other than oils and throw them in the frying pan and watch them turn into smoke.
And you know when you turn oil into smoke, you've changed the chemistry. So you end up with unnatural molecules that never existed in nature, that life never made a repair program, or a breakdown program or an exit program for.
And they pile up in your body because you do slowly get rid of them through your skin shedding and the lining of your intestinal tract shedding. So you get a little bit, and you can sweat out a little bit. But they pile up at the rate we're taking them in and not having a good way to get rid of them. They pile up in the body, and then after a year, two years, five years, ten years, thirty years, you get some craziest like inflammatory or cancer, and they say I don't know, I always ate good.
I don't know why I got this disease, must have been God punishing me, you know something. But the industry never told people about the damage. And I've. Actually, you've called them, and I said when I found this out, I said why when you know this does damage to the oil? Because this was in their studies, right? Why do you do this?
And he said, well, one of the reasons we do it is because when we use this Drano window washing has a bleachified. When we do that, we can get rid of 50% of the pesticides that are in the oil. And my head went ballistic; I'd been poisoned by pesticides. It had never occurred to me that there were pesticides in oils, and I thought to myself, you mean the other 50% of the pesticides stay in the oil, right?
And so I said to him, why don't you start with organically grown seeds, then you don't have the problem, to begin with. And there was this really long silence at the end of the phone, and I'm a good talker, but I can listen too, and I waited. And then when he came back, he was angry, he said I don't know what your problem is, the oil is only one percent damaged, it's 99% good.
And if you got 99 on an exam, you'd be damn happy, wouldn't you? So I wasn't impressed, because I used to get a hundred percent in my genetics exam, because I was in love with the field, and I mean I was, so I wasn't impressed with the 90, but then I thought well, maybe I'm overreacting, that's when I did the math and came up with the numbers. 60 quintillion damaged molecules in every tablespoon, that's one percent damage.
And at that point, I thought we should be making oils with health in mind; I can't get healthy using oils like this because I've been poisoned by pesticides, right? I can't get healthy and also like that we should make them with health in mind.
And so I conceptualized a way of keeping oils while they're being pressed and filtered and settled, and filled into glass bottles and put in the cold; nobody's doing any of that with oils, right? No light, no oxygen, and no high temperature get to the oil during the whole program.
So you had to make a really tight production system, where the oil is protected. It's pretty good in the seed because nature's protection is pretty good. In fact, they found flax seeds 5,000 years old in caves in Switzerland, stone age flax seeds, and they planted them, and they grew. That's how good nature's packaging can be.
[00:13:28.17] Scott: That's amazing.
[00:13:29.25] Udo Erasmus: And so then we set out to make a way of making oils with health in mind. And then, the year after I got poisoned, it was established that omega-3s are also essential nutrients. We knew that about omega-6s in 1929; this was 1981.
And I was there when that came out, and I got so excited. I said, oh my god, 99% of the population doesn't get enough. They're required by every cell, they're five times more sensitive to damage than omega-6, so they're a nightmare to work with.
We're building a system to make oils with care. If we could bring the missing omega-3s back into people's diet, we could help so many people. And the research now says when you increase omega-3s, as long as they're not damaged by the processing and don't contain toxins like pesticides and stuff.
You can improve virtually every major degenerative condition of our time. But I have to add to it that you have to get the ratio between omega 3 and 6 right. And flax has too much three for the amount of six it contains, and I became omega-6 deficient on flax oil, and that's why I ended up making a blend that is better balanced.
[00:14:53.16] Scott: It's interesting that you say that because, in my most recent lipid testing, I also had plenty of omega-3s. In fact, maybe an excess of omega-3s and was deficient in omega-6. And I also really like the focus that you have on the quality and the pesticides because I think in today's modern illnesses the environmental toxicity plays such a key role.
And I know lots of people worry about metals, and they certainly play a role. But pesticides, I think, are an exposure we don't have enough conversation about; we look at glyphosate and all of these things and how they build up in our tissues.
You wrote the book “Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill”, which I read in preparation for our conversation. I urge people to get it; it goes into tremendous detail. And in the book, you say that “degeneration from deficiency is far more common than toxicity from excess”. Wondering if you could talk to us about some of the symptoms that people see when they have a healing fat deficiency, and can we have an excess of fats that heal?
[00:15:54.25] Udo Erasmus: Deficiency symptoms, fundamentally omega-3 and omega-6, are essential. They're the only thing we get from fats that is essential by the definition that researchers made for the most important building blocks for human body construction.
And essential specifically means you have to bring it in from outside because your body can't make it, but you have to have it to live and be healthy. If you don't get enough, your health will deteriorate, you will get deficiency symptoms.
They are degenerative in nature, so your body is literally falling apart. The symptoms get worse with time, and if you don't get enough long enough, you die.
So this is like really important stuff. If, however, while you're deteriorating because you're not getting enough, you bring enough into the diet, then all the problems come from not getting enough are reversed because life knows what to do to make you a healthy body, provided you take responsibility here at the mouth end, to make sure that optimum amounts of all of the essential nutrients of which there are 42, land in your body so life can do the job that it knows how to do.
That's the only help it needs. Once you swallow them, everything's on automatic. Life takes care of everything, while you're sleeping, while you're thinking about something else. But here, you have choice and responsibility. So that's what essential means. Only omega-3 and omega-6 are essential from the entire world of fats and oils that fit that definition.
So those are the only things you need to have. Omega 9s are not essential; your body can make those out of sugar and starch. Saturated fats are not essential; your body can make those out of sugar and starch too. So whenever it comes to talking about fats, the number one thing you always have to focus on, do I get omega-3 and omega-6 undamaged, in the right ratio, and in the right amounts into my body.
So that all of the functions they have, and there are like literally thousands of functions that they have, they're turned into hormones, and they've turned into antioxidants, and they're turned into anti-inflammatories, and they're turned into immune enhancers, and they're turned into feel-good molecules. And they're turned into hormones that regulate cell activity on a moment-to-moment basis lifelong.
So to optimize fat, oil, or essential fatty acid intake is actually number one job. And it is because more people are deficient in omega-3s than any other nutrient. That's kind of like I ended up in a place where I said, well, I'm actually dealing with the situation that is most pressing, that is most likely to have positive benefits for the largest number of people.
And I got so, I mean I went off like a firecracker, and we had no money, and I have no business background, and we just did this thing, and now flax oil is a billion dollar a year industry at wholesale. Getting too little is a big problem because you cannot be healthy if you get too little. If you get too much, the body uses it as fuel and burns it off because these are high-energy molecules.
One of the things that when we started working with the blend and getting the ratio between them right, and getting omega-6s made with health in mind, as well as omega-3s. We did some studies with athletes, 40 to 60% increase in stamina within 30 days of starting to take a tablespoon per 50 pounds of body weight per day.
And we measured it by them doing their sport to exhaustion before they took the oil, and then a month after they started taking, we didn't change anything else. 40 to 60 percent, strength and endurance sports. Every sport we gave it to, they noticed they healed quicker, they slept better, they had more energy, their reflexes were sharper.
They had less joint injury and less joint pain. They had more mobility and flexibility; that's a huge deal because the joints are the weak link in every sport. You just torque your knee a little bit, and you're out of the game, right?
And then, because they're high energy, when you get more than your body needs, it just burns them off for energy. And in fact, in summer, you need less than in winter, and if in summer you take more than you need, you might sweat a little more.
[00:20:52.02] Scott: Another really profound statement that you made in the book was that “deficiencies, excesses, or imbalances in fats are involved in 70% or more of U.S deaths”; that was a really shocking statement there.
But it just shows us how important these fats are. And I like how you talk about the fact that if we get the facts right, we get the nutrients right, that the majority, like 98% of the body, will replace itself over a year with these higher quality ingredients that we're giving it.
You talked about the essential nutrients, things like essential fatty acids and amino acids and minerals and vitamins and so on. Let's talk a little more about the ratio, and this is an interesting conversation because similar to the debate that you talked about earlier about the pros and cons of omega-6, the ratio is also one that I've seen talked about in different ways.
I've heard many people talk about ideally having a 4:1 omega-6 to omega-3 ratio. I believe your products are 2:1 omega-3 to omega-6. So talk to us about the ratio; how do we determine the ratio?
[00:22:00.11] Udo Erasmus: Yes. Look, if you're healthy, there's a relatively wide ratio that works. Anywhere from two and a half times more omega-3 than omega-6 to six times more omega-6 than omega-3, so it's a pretty wide range.
But if you're sick, omega-3s are the magic. And we started with flaxseed oil, and flaxseed oil is four times richer in omega-3 than omega-6. I became omega-6 deficient on it. What did I get? I got dry eyes, skipped heartbeats, arthritis-like pain in my finger joints, and thin papery skin. And those are classic omega-6 deficiency symptoms.
And I fixed them by eating sunflower seeds because sunflower seeds have the oil is 60% or about 60% omega-6 and has no omega-3. So I basically dumped sunflower seeds on my flax to get to balance back. And within two or three weeks, it was all gone.
So the ratio makes a difference. Our rate showed generally in the population, 10 to 1 in favor of omega-6, maybe even 20 to 1 in favor of omega-6. And some people say 50 times more omega-6 than omega-3.
[00:23:23.17] Scott: And I would guess that omega-6 is not necessarily the right omega-6 of high quality prepared in the right way?
[00:23:31.26] Udo Erasmus: No, correct. They're damaged by the processing that one percent and they're used for frying. And so a lot of the omega-6s we get, which is why also we put omega-6s with the omega-3s because we want people to get off the damaged omega-6s and get omega-6s made with health in mind because they're essential.
But when they're damaged, that's why they give you cancer and kill you, right? Because they're damaged. And it's the damage that we want. So we're doing two things; one is we're bringing in the missing omega-3s, and we're changing out the damage to omega-6s for omega-6 is made with health in mind. And then we played with the ratio; I know that in the literature, some people say four to one, some other people say one to one.
But these are all lab chemists, lab scientists; they work in labs. We worked with the public, and we went to 40 countries, and I mean, it's a crazy journey, it's been really fun, and we get the feedback, and we invite the feedback. And we have always found that when we have a ratio of twice as much omega-3 as omega-6, we got our best results.
Because omega-3s are super high energy, I call them the god molecule. If God is energy, then omega-3 is as close to God as you get in a molecule, right? And it's the one that gives people that extra stamina, that speeds the healing, that gives the rest of the glands and the and the cells, the receptors, better function.
The glands work better to do their job; the muscles work better to do their job; you recover quicker, you heal quicker. So they're super high-energy molecules. And so one of the reasons I think is why they're so good in so many places, why do the research summaries they improve virtually every major degenerative condition of our time.
Is because energy runs everything, and any time that you bring the cells more energy, they do their job better, right? Whether it's healing or it's making a hormone, or it's working on a receptor, or building actin and myosin or whatever it is, or you're detoxing because those are all energy-requiring processes. So anything and they do that because they're very oxygen loving, so they spoil very quickly if they're in the atmosphere.
But in the biochemical architecture of the body, they attract oxygen and then put the oxygen through the energy production systems like the mitochondria. And they do that exceptionally well. Better than carbs, better than saturated fats, better than omega-6s.
And so what we found in practice, and why we use the two to one ratio, is because, in practice, we have always seen our best results with that. Hemp oil has three times more omega-6 than omega-3; you don't get the same results.
Because if we did, then that's the ratio I would use because I'm at the end where I get to decide, right? And of course, the better results you get, the more consistently you get them, the better it is for the business too.
Because the whole point is everybody's looking for results. And because I'm at the point I could have made a ten to one in one direction; I could have made it one to ten in the other direction, right? So we experimented with that at the beginning.
[00:27:26.02] Scott: If we're looking at plant oils, we largely get the alpha-linoleic acid, the omega-3 or the linoleic acid, the omega-6, which then the body will convert to EPA and DHA.
I've heard that some people potentially are less efficient at that conversion; maybe there are some genetic predispositions that make them less able to convert the plant oils to ALA and LA, to EPA and DHA. Do we need to supplement with fish oil to get EPA and DHA?
[00:27:57.22] Udo Erasmus: Well, it depends on whom you ask. If Walter Willett was asked that question, what would happen if you couldn't convert alpha-linolenic acid, the omega-3, from plants and linoleic acid? And his instant answer was you'd be dead. If you couldn't convert, you'd be dead. Every cell in your body has all the genes you need to do the conversion. If it doesn't have the gene, you probably check out before you're born.
Or if you don't check out before you're born, because your mother may be able to convert, so you might get some from mom, you check out very soon after you're born or after you come off the breast. So you'd have a very short life because the conversion is that important.
Women convert more effectively than men; that's important because when they're pregnant, they have to build one brain and maintain the other. So for them, it's more important. We don't get pregnant, so men convert a lower rate. But your whole brain, which is the fat richest organ, we are fatheads. And 60% percent of the dry weight of the brain is fat.
And of that, about a third is omega-3 and omega-6 derivatives. DHA the omega-6 derivative. You only go through 2.4 to 3.8 milligrams of DHA a day under normal circumstances. And if you're short on DHA, then the brain will conserve it. So the turnover will be even slower. So the body knows how to deal with that. And the only way that the conversion is impaired is if you don't have enough vitamin C, vitamin B3, vitamin B6, magnesium, zinc.
So the cure is not to give people EPA and DHA; the cure is to get the other essential nutrients optimized in your diet. But when we started, before we came out with flax oil, the fish industry said 30% of the population cannot convert enough. Which meant 70% of the population doesn't need fish oil; that was their advertising.
And the week we came out with flax oil, this is in 1987, 1988 we did a big tour. But 1987, that week, one of the fish oil companies came up with a new marketing thing, say the body can't convert plant into fish oils.
But you know what? Elephants do; they only eat plants; they got DHA in their brain. Gorillas, they only eat leaves: zebras, horses, rabbits, and 300 million Hindus in the Brahmana cast. Never ate fish, never ate fish oil, had no source of EPA or DHA in their diet. Have been on that diet, obligate vegetarians for probably 20,000 years, but at least 5,000 years.
So I don't know how many million, hundreds of millions of people we're talking about. And they have no problem with either vision, which uses a lot of DHA the retina or brain function or sperm formation. Because DHA is most concentrated in those three issues, they've reproduced just as well as we do, they think just as well as we do, and they can see just as well as we do.
[00:31:42.17] Scott: I want to dig a little more into the fish oil conversation. I personally, right now, I'm using 100% plant-based oils. I, of course, had periods where I've used different types of oils as well. But my understanding is that the omega-3 and fish oil actually come from their consumption of algae, and not that the fish themselves are producing omega-3.
So is there a place for algal oils or algae-derived oils? I believe you actually have a formulation that has some algal oils in it as well. And is there a scenario where we can find fish oils that are not toxic, that haven't been over-processed. Would Udo ever take a fish oil?
[00:32:25.04] Udo Erasmus: No, because I knew that even when I started working. And the idea, because of the damage, because alpha-linolenic acid is five times more sensitive to damage by light, oxygen, and heat than omega-6. And fish oils EPA and DHA are five times more sensitive to damage than alpha-linolenic acid. So they're like super because they have so many double bonds, and that makes them chemically super reactive.
And because of that chemical reactivity, they also get turned into all kinds of cool things in the body, right? But they spoil on the shelf. You can buy little bottles of fish oil, you open them up, and two days later, they smell really fishy; that's rancidity because the moment you open it, oxygen got in, right? And they're treated like the omega-6 oils that are one percent damaged with Drano window washing, acid bleach, and high temperature.
And they're 25 times more sensitive. So getting three or five, or maybe even 10% damage in the oil, damaged molecules in the oil is not unreasonable. And if you concentrate the fish oils, because they call them pharmaceutical grade. Well, when you concentrate the DHA and EPA, you're also concentrating the damaged molecules.
So there's so much going on, and what we said is, you know what, the problem isn't that the body can't convert; the problem is most people don't get enough starting material. Let's bring in the starting material and let life do its job through the genetic system that it invented.
And let's trust that 300 million Brahmanas can't be wrong if they've never. Now is there a place for them? I would say my personal opinion is this is more a piece of mind factor to bring in DHA just because the grapevine is confused by the misrepresentation of the research as turf protection for the fish oil industry.
And the fish oil industry is not sustainable, and by 2048, they have estimated there will be no fish in the ocean because we're getting better at getting the fish bigger and bigger machines. No care was ever taken to set limits.
And you can get it in algae and grow it in tanks, so you can actually isolate the environment. And the ocean is so dirty now that fish is the dirtiest meat on the planet. And that's what happens when, there's a saying, if you doo-doo in your nest, you will nest in your doo-doo.
[00:35:34.02] Scott: I love that saying.
[00:35:36.06] Udo Erasmus: And we've been doing that for a long time now.
[00:35:39.03] Scott: When people are starting to consider potential deficiencies, oftentimes they want to do some type of tests to see where they are in the lipid realm. I've used the OmegaQuant; I've done the testing through Neuro Lipid Research, which is through Kennedy Krieger Institute, which is very detailed.
What do you recommend for people to see where they are? Do they have too much omega-3 and need more omega-6? Are they deficient in both? Are they actually doing pretty well? What can we do?
[00:36:06.13] Udo Erasmus: Yes. Well, there are three tests that you can do, one is plasma fatty acids. And that kind of gives you a picture of what you did today or yesterday. And the second one is red blood cell membranes, that gives you a picture of what happened in the past four months.
And then you can do fat deposits, and that gives you a picture of what happened in the past 16 months ballpark. I used to get, doctor sent me the tests, and they would say what does this mean? Because they didn't know what, they had the test, but they didn't know what it means.
I've always done, I've never done the tests; what I've always done is done it by skin feel. Here's why skin gets them last and loses them first. Because you can live with dry skin, but if your heart dried out or your liver dried out, or your guts dried out inside, that would be lethal.
So there's a priority on who gets the oil first, and the priority is everything gets it first, and the skin gets at last, and it loses it first. So you basically lose oil from outside inward, okay. So the way I measure optimum intake is by how the skin feels.
If your skin is soft and velvety, then you've got optimum intake for the body. And why that works is because if you get omega-6s but not enough omega-3s, you will lose that. You will lose that because they both together form a barrier against loss of moisture in the skin. And I literally became, I became omega-six deficient on flax oil.
My skin, noticed, and people would say, well, did you change the formula? Because I took your flax oil, this is in the old days, right? I took your flax all, and my skin became really nice, and then after a few months, it sort of fell apart again.
And what happened was they started with enough omega-6 but not enough omega-3. Then we pumped them full of omega-3s that balanced it out. And then, after a while, they ended up with too little omega-6 and too much omega-3, and then it fell apart again. And so that's another reason why we went from flax oil to a blend, where you can't get that problem.
[00:38:48.07] Scott: It's interesting; I hadn't really heard that until I started looking at your work. And I mentioned to you right before we started this conversation that for years my heels would be incredibly dry and cracked, and I could never figure out exactly what it was.
And as I've continued to incorporate lots of fats and lipids and optimize the assimilation of those, just in the past few weeks, actually for the first time in years, I went, oh my gosh, something's changed, and that all now is very soft and supple. So I'm taking that as a sign that I'm on a good path relative to my lipid incorporation.
[00:39:22.13] Udo Erasmus: Yes, I used to get that too. But it's been so long since I last had it that when you reminded me, it reminded me. Oh yes, that's right. I used to get them, and you get like a file, and you file off all the dry stuff.
And they sell you stuff like that. No, you need to drink more oil. I've even had people put oil on the heel to get it there from the outside, and that works to some extent too. But the best way is always to oil your skin from within. Many people, including myself at one time, fell for the low-fat fad, eating low fat, the low omega-6, that omega-6s were bad.
Can you clear up the myth that fats make us fat? Because I think one of the hesitations people have about fat is, oh my gosh, if I incorporate these fats, I'm going to become fat.
I think people would be shocked to know that my morning power shake probably has over a thousand calories just in one glass from all of the lipids and other things that I put into it. So talk to us about how fat can actually increase metabolic rate and decrease fat.
[00:40:29.07] Udo Erasmus: If you go on a no-fat diet, that will kill you eventually if you stay on it long enough. That's a fact; why? Because on a no-fat diet, you will not get omega threes and sixes, which are essential for health and for life. So you won't get those, and eventually, you wear them out in your body, and then you die. If you're going to low fat diet, you're very likely to have dry skin and low energy levels. And in fact, when I talked to the international vegetarian society in Vegas, this is also way back. I had a big room, and I said to them, so how many of you are vegan? All the hands went up. Then I said, how many of you have dry skin? All the hands went up. I said what you're doing in plant-based nutrition has many good points for health. So I don't want to knock that, but you're making one mistake. And the mistake is you do not have, because they were all down to 10% fat, because it was a big deal, right? And that was the big deal. Oh yes, less fat, less fat.
And I said the mistake you're making is you're not getting enough of the right kind of fat. And not everybody followed it, but some people I said what you need to do? A tablespoon for 50 pounds of body weight per day, which is about 25% of calories, ballpark. And you will notice that your skin will not be dry anymore if you do it right.
And so some people did it, and the feedback we got, amazing. My energy levels are through the roof, my skin is amazing, and thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, right? So that's the low fat. Some people think that Pritikin killed himself on his low-fat diet because his diet was eight percent fat, and he got some problems.
He died, I think lymphoma or leukemia or something. And if these are high-energy molecules, then it makes sense that cancer comes from lack of energy to a large extent. Because your immune cells, when your immune cells have no energy, then it's going to going to be pretty hard for them to deal with cancers. Fat makes you fat; in 1979, the McGovern report on nutrition and health said fats are bad, they missed the point that it was the processing that made them bad.
So what they did is they put carbs at the bottom of the food pyramid; that's what you should eat the most of. They put fats at the top of the pyramid; that's what you should eat the least of. And that became the food pyramid. I think department of agriculture ran that, sent it everywhere, people started following it and overweight went from 25 percent of the population to 60 percent in 20 years of following that really stupid food pyramid.
And you would say, well, we got told to eat more carbs and less fat, and we got fatter. Maybe there's a hint there, but nobody questioned it. It was amazing; nobody questioned it. Here's how it works. When you eat carbs, they give you energy, so they're good fuel if you burn them. But if you eat more than you burn, then you get high blood sugar.
High blood sugar is toxic and can kill you if there's no way to deal with it. But we have a way to deal with it, insulin. So high blood sugar triggers insulin production, insulin drives the excess sugar into the cells, and in the cells, there is a gene called, in every cell, there's a gene called fatty acid synthase. And it does seven steps that turn a carbohydrate into a fat molecule.
And then they'll get stored in the body, hoping for a famine. In which case you can live off your fat. But we don't have the famines. And the and the insulin is so good at getting the sugar out of the blood into the cells that when this is done and you've turned the excess sugar into fat, you end up with low blood sugar.
And now your body screams that you eat or die. And what do you do? You eat, well what do you eat? Well, you eat carbs. And when you get like that, because it's an addiction, it's intense. Then you start eating pretty fast, so you swallow them; they have to be digested into glucose, the glucose gets absorbed, and that takes time.
So by the time your blood sugar is normal and your body stops screaming at you, you've eaten more than you need it. And over the next few hours, your blood sugar goes up again. Insulin again, into the cells again, fat production again, low blood sugar again, and that's called the carbohydrate addiction cycle.
And some people claim that addiction is eight times more powerful than addiction to cocaine; probably it's more like four times. But it's powerful; when you run out of fuel, your body screams, right? And you deal with it.
When you eat carbs, you get stable energy; you don't get that. Oh, and the other thing is that when this is happening, the carbs turn off the fat-burning genes in the body, and they turn on the fat production gene, right? When you eat fats, they don't turn off fat burning; that would be stupid, right? If you've got fat as fuel, and they turn off the fat, the ability to use the fat as fuel, the body doesn't work that way; it doesn't do that.
And it doesn't turn on the fat production genes because you don't need it. You have the fat; you don't need to do that. And omega-3, especially omega-3, actively turns on fat-burning genes and actively turns off the fat production gene.
So I call it the fat-burning fire starter high energy. You get high energy. The fats are pushed into the cells, pushed into the mitochondria, get chopped down, go through the Krebs cycle, and then that's where your energy comes from, stored on ATP and etc.
So the saturated fats don't turn on fat burning or turn off fat production; they're neutral that way. Omega-3s is specifically, now when we started with working with flax oil, people would tell us sometimes I took flax oil, and I lost some weight, and it was so consistent that I started telling people use a flax oil for weight management.
And then I got feedback from the field; this is my experiment in a way, right? I did what you said, but I put on a few pounds. So now I got into it, it's like okay well, what else are you eating and how are you doing it? So what we found out is that people who were eating carbs and then added the oil on top of the carbs would put on a little weight.
And so what we started saying is no, when you start making fats your main fuel, you need to lower your carbohydrates, so we're now heading for a keto diet basically, right? And you need to do that because the body will prefer to burn the carbs because they can be toxic. So it's burning them to get rid of them, and that will override the omega-3s ability to turn on fat burning and turn off fat production. So you have to do a fuel shift, not a fuel addition.
And we worked with athletes doing marathons; they were all carb loading. So you eat carbs, you stuff carbs for three days before you run. The problem is you can only store about a pound of carbs when you do that. And that pound of carbs, when you go on your run, is all burned up after 20 miles, and the marathon is 26 miles.
So they would hit the wall, and then they would drag their sorry butts across the finish line, and it was like intensely torturous. So we said to them, no, you guys, you're doing it wrong, and this is what everybody was doing. And we came a little startup company, it's a little smart-ass Udo, and we would say to them hey, you guys are doing that wrong.
Because think about it, fat has always been the body's major fuel. You can store 300 pounds of fat in your body, and you can run 12,000 miles on that fat. And if you're just eight percent fat which is pretty lean, and you burn half of it, you can't burn all of it because some of it's in membranes. So you burn half of that eight percent, so you're burning four percent of your body weight.
Which is, by the way, is eight percent, I think is 12 pounds. So you got six pounds of fat to burn, and you can run 300 miles on that. So what you want to do is carb deplete so that when you start running your race. Your fat-burning mechanisms are all turned on full bore, and you run the entire race on fats.
[00:50:27.07] Scott: It's funny that you say that because there's a new health series on Netflix that I just watched this last weekend, and they had a story about an ultra-runner, even going well beyond the distance of a marathon.
Like running hundreds of miles, and the mix that he was putting together that had all kinds of carbs, and I kept thinking you need to put some fats in there.
[00:50:47.28] Udo Erasmus: Yes. And the guy who ran the longest distance around, Scott Jurek, he ran 152 miles in 24 hours.
So this is a 24-hour race. You can sleep for 24 hours and then run like hell for an hour, or you can try to run 24 hours and get no sleep; you can do it any way you want. But they say you got 24 hours, how far can you go? One hundred fifty-two miles which is about six marathons in 24 hours, and he did it on Udo's oil.
[00:51:20.10] Scott: Wow, that's amazing.
[00:51:22.04] Udo Erasmus: And he set the North American record for longest distance run.
[00:51:26.26] Scott: So when we incorporate these oils supplementally from Udo's oil, for example, what do we need to think about relative to the diet? You mentioned keeping the carbs low.
But do we also need to consider the other fats and oils and things that are in our diet, making sure that they're healthy, where does olive oil fit into the conversation for example, which is used a lot in cooking, talk to us a little about the dietary side of this?
[00:51:51.20] Udo Erasmus: Okay. When you ask about oil for cooking, I have to tell you, frying food in oils is the stupidest thing that the human race has ever invented to do regarding health. Because when you overheat oils, or when you put them in the frying pan, light, oxygen, and heat damage them all at the same time.
And the food that gets burned because their boiling point is so high. The foods that get burned become toxic. So what's been shown is that when you burn starch, or you burn protein, or you burn oils, each one independent of the other two increases inflammation and risk of cancer.
[00:52:41.03] Scott: From the AGEs that are produced, right?
[00:52:43.26] Udo Erasmus: Well, it's all different things.
[00:52:46.10] Scott: Okay.
[00:52:46.26] Udo Erasmus: I mean proteins produce something, and carbs produce something, and oils produce something. And there's a whole bunch of different toxic molecules that are produced in frying operations.
So what I say to people, you got a frying pan? Everybody does; pull it out, turn it upside down, hit yourself on the head with it really hard because it's going to get you pain. Associate your frying pan with pain, and then throw the stupid thing out.
And go back to what people did 120 years ago when the oil industry started; before that, they cooked their food in water. When I was a kid, cooking meant in water, and the other one was called frying or deep frying. Now when we say cooking, we're usually mean oil.
So even the meaning of the term has changed, and that was driven by the oil industry saying, oh my god, if we could get them to use oil for cooking instead of water, can you imagine how much oil we would sell? And then they convinced our mothers, who are in a hurry like women are always doing so much, right?
Convinced them that it was quicker. And therefore, and they left out that it increases cancer when you fry, that's been known for years. Oils lower cholesterol and increase cancer, so they talked about lowering cholesterol, but they left out cancer.
And in those days, it was Mazzola corn oil was the famous brand, and when that came out. Then Mazzola disappeared; I thought they went out of business. When I started traveling, it was alive and well in all of Asia because they weren't not as educated as we were over here. So the industry didn't go out of business; they just went and basically imposed their poison on people who didn't know better. That's shocking. So the idea of olive oil for frying, traditionally, they didn't do that. Traditionally, they cooked their food in water, dumped off the water.
Added the oil for flavor because oils enhance flavors of foods and the absorption of the oil-soluble nutrients; they enhance it. So that's why oils go with food. But the idea is cook the food in water, and then when it's off the heat, then you can add the oil. I put Udo's oil in miso soup on steamed vegetables, but always after it comes off the fire, no frying.
[00:55:17.16] Scott: We've talked about flax oil; we've talked a little bit about hemp oil. Sunflower, sesame, and safflower oils are ones that many people suggest are not health-promoting, that they should be avoided. And yet, they're often used in healthy oil blends. Can you shed some light on sunflower, sesame, and safflower?
[00:55:37.20] Udo Erasmus: Yes, first of all, those three oils sunflower, sesame, safflower only omega-6s no omega-3s. So these are omega-6 oils. And these are oils unless it says unrefined, are all oils like all of the oils in the plastic bottles and the supermarkets, or in everywhere really, convenient stores, everywhere.
Have been treated with Drano, window washing, acid bleached, and fried before they went in the bottle before they go and went on the shelf before you bought them. So you get that one percent damaged, a million damaged molecules for every one of the body's 60 trillion cells in one tablespoon.
And when they say these are not good oils, again, they're not making the distinction between the oil the way exists in the sunflower or sesame or safflower seeds in its natural state. And the damage done by the processing.
So it's the damage done by the processing and the lack of omega-3s that are the two issues with those oils, right? But the industry doesn't make oils with health in mind; they make oils with shelf life in mind. Why is that? Because then I can make oil in Vancouver and I can sell it to you in Santa Clara County, and I can also sell it in Johannesburg and Tokyo.
And then I have a potentially a very big market, but I need a shelf life for that. And oils are perishable, and oils need care. And if you want oils to serve health, then you've got to give them the care they need, and you got to prevent them from being damaged.
And you got to put them in glass because plastic leeches into oils and plastic also creates inflammation and increases risk of cancer when it gets into your body, for molecules that we don't know how to break down.
[00:57:31.13] Scott: When might you think about supplementing with GLA, for example, in evening primrose oil or borage oil or black currant seed oil.
[00:57:41.10] Udo Erasmus: Okay. I would not use borage; there are molecules called Pyrrolizidine alkaloids, unsaturated Pyrrolizidine alkaloids. And they have some untoward effects on the body. And there is a number of scientists who have expressed concern about using borage oil that way.
In terms of GLA, the guy who started that, this is a kind of a cool story, was David Horrobin, and he worked with evening primrose oil. And he had a company called Efamol. And part of the reason, he was a medical doctor, and the medical profession didn't support what he was doing, his research.
And so he called his product Efamol, which would be EFA molecule essential fatty acid molecule, but it also means “F ‘em all”. And I asked him one time whether he was aware of it, and he didn't answer the question. I'm pretty sure he knew; he's a very smart man, Efamol.
So he started Efamol, he started evening primrose oil, and the GLA trend. He started that before omega-3s were established as essential, which was in 1981. And he started before that. And he found out that GLA had some benefits, and it turns out that when you're omega-3 deficient, GLA will pinch hit for omega-3 deficiency because the molecules are quite similar.
Same length, same number of double bonds. It's just that one double bond in GLA is in a different position on the molecule than in ALA. And so it was pinch-hitting for omega-3 deficiency when I started working with flax oil; we found that ALA did as good or a better job most of the time as GLA did. And GLA, nobody talks about oh, we can't convert.
If you can't convert omega-3s into EPA and DHA, then you wouldn't be able to convert omega-6s into GLA and then DGLA and then arachidonic acid. But there's no never been a problem with that. So getting enough linoleic acid, the omega-6, the plant omega-6, will do the job. I think the benefit of GLA was that it covered for omega-3 deficiency when most people didn't get enough omega-3.
And at that time, lecithin was one of the soy lecithin was one of the rare sources of omega-3s, and now lecithin is not so interesting anymore because we have better sources of omega-3s. And then actually, David Horrobin he asked me, I had a conversation, he said what do you find with omega-3s?
So he was one of the guys who got me started in working with oils. When the omega-3 started getting a little more attention, during the last part of his life, he actually went and worked with omega-3s. So he actually gave up on it.
He sold the company, and then he moved from Halifax to Scotland, and he worked in Scotland. In Scotland, he was working on omega-3s.
[01:01:26.27] Scott: What are your thoughts on canola oil? That is an oil that I generally try to avoid. And I see more and more companies talking about healthy food and saying they use organic canola oil. What are your thoughts?
[01:01:39.25] Udo Erasmus: Yes. There is information on the internet where people say it's an oil that was used as a crankcase oil, and it was used as a lubrication oil. And that it's a really bad thing, and nobody should touch it with a 10-foot pole. But that's completely bogus information. Somebody came up with it, sometimes.
On the internet, you find there are people who see something, and then they take it through a logical process, and they end up in something that sounds really logical. Except the premise they began with was off, and then everything you build on it is off. And that's the problem of free speech like that's the downside of free speech.
The upside is you can say what you want; the downside is you can say what you want, right? And the problem with canola is the same problem with all the other oils, which is they've been treated with Drano, window washing, bleached and fried; that's my short version of sodium hydroxide, phosphoric acid bleaching clays, and deodorization.
They might be a little worse because they have 10 percent omega-3 in them, and the omega-3s are five times more sensitive to damage than the omega-6s. So you would get proportionately more of the molecules damaged.
But they don't have a special problem. There were people who, it has a erucic acid, these are rapeseed, it's rapeseed canola is a Canadian was developed in Canada and said the Canadian oil is what canola means.
And they have a molecule in them called erucic acid. And when they were fed to rat, the rats had problems, they blamed that erucic acid, and it turned out it wasn't the erucic acid. When they used soy oil that made the way the soy oil is made, they actually had the same problems with the rats. It contains a little omega-3 as well.
And so they eventually said it's not the erucic acid that causes the problem, but it's probably the processing damage. So I wouldn't put canola, I just put it beside all the other oils that are damaged by the processing, and that should not be used for frying.
[01:04:00.19] Scott: I want to get into assimilation of fats. And so my experience was I was consuming a lot of healthy fats, I was still deficient in omega-6s, even though I was consuming a lot of them. Do we need to give some consideration to supporting the breakdown, the assimilation of fats?
Using things like ox bile or TUDCA or digestive enzymes, maybe those that don't have a gallbladder, for example, have more problems with fat assimilation. How do we optimize that aspect?
[01:04:30.08] Udo Erasmus: Yes, okay. So for assimilation, lecithin is helpful because it emulsifies the fat, so there's more surface area for the digestive enzymes to work on. Lipase enzymes are a good idea, but when you take enzymes because the foods are cooked, and you destroyed the enzymes that are present in raw food.
Proteases are the most important because when you don't digest your proteins properly, they can cause lots of problems. So I recommend that people if you cook your food, replace the enzymes you destroyed when foods were cooked. And in those enzymes are usually protease, lipase, little amylase. I lower amylase in the enzymes. I work low in amylase because I don't want to speed up carb digestion; it's too fast already for most people.
But I do want a little bit in it because there are proteins that have starch strings on them that you have to digest off before proteases can digest the protein. So a little bit of amylase, lots of proteases, because protein digestion is a bigger issue than fat digestion. And then a medium amount of lipase, so that that's helpful.
Bile is still being debated whether bile is as important for fat digestion as used to be believed. When someone has their gallbladder out, then what happens is the bile dribbles into the intestine instead of being stored in the gallbladder and then dumped on a meal.
So people sometimes suggest that if you have your gallbladder out, that instead of eating three big meals a day, you should just nibble because then the bile will dribble, right? So you nibble and dribble. And that seems to take care of it.
Although, they usually don't get told by the doctor what a big difference that can make. And then I tend not to want to mess with bile and hydrochloric acid. Simply because when your body makes hydrochloric acid, then it also makes the neutralization of the hydrochloric acid in the pancreas, the bicarbonate. And so, between them, it's net neutral.
If you start taking hydrochloric acid, you acidify your body, and that has some long-term that has nasty effects. Most of the time, you don't make enough hydrochloric acid because you are not digesting your food. So taking enzymes to make sure all the foods get completely digested, so you absorb the nutrients out of which you make hydrochloric acid, I think is a better way to go.
Short term, maybe hydrochloric acid. Long term, I wouldn't advise it. The bile acids are just one way to get rid of cholesterol. And so you need lots of fiber to make sure the bile ends up in the toilet, and the cholesterol and bile acids aren't reabsorbed.
Because then sometimes your cholesterol will go up. So I would rather not mess with that system because when you just pump in that thing, then you're changing the context.
And that sometimes happens when you take B vitamins out of context with the rest of the B vitamins, or when you take vitamin C out of context with all of the bioflavonoids and all the other related molecules that you find in whole foods. So I think better than pumping bile would be to eat in line with nature. Fresh, whole, raw, organic, mostly plant-based, and that generally takes care of and non-toxic.
[01:08:33.07] Scott: Given the conversation we were having on damaged fats, on oxidized fats, how the oxidized fats can actually lead to more health challenges, are antioxidants helpful in the context of fat oxidization?
Things like vitamin E, vitamin C, beta carotene. Is there a role for those when we're trying to minimize these oxidized fats?
[01:08:55.01] Udo Erasmus: Yes, I do it different. It's a great question because they are pro-oxidants. It's kind of like fats are the fuel, so they make the fire. And then the antioxidants are the screen in front of the fire that prevents the sparks from flying out and burning your carpet, right? So yes, and there's always a dance between burning and stopping, and that's what fuel and antioxidants do.
My preferable is when you eat a lot of fats; it's a really good idea to eat a lot of vegetables. Like green vegetables. And the reason why not just vitamin C or vitamin E or selenium, the reason why not just one of these is every green thing has antioxidants in it that are different in their function.
And when you have a blend, you also get them in the amount that is appropriate in nature. And this is like an experiment that's been going on for four and a half billion years. So what didn't work got recycled. And so what's going on in nature is the end product success of an experiment that's been going on for four billion years, by a, what would you say?
By an intelligence that is a whole lot more intelligent and less wasteful and less neglectful than our intelligence even at its best. And so I would say more in line with that.
Now, if seeds and nuts have antioxidants in them, so seeds and nuts is a good route to go because you can also get from oil; you could get too much. Because it's a lot of concentrated fuel. And there are in the oils made with health in mind; there are antioxidants. But the fiber goes, and fiber is also antioxidant.
[01:11:04.15] Scott: I want to get into talking about some of the roles of fats in terms of various conditions that listeners are dealing with here. We're talking about environmental toxicity, chronic infections, things of that nature.
Many of the environmental toxicants that we get from outside of us are stored in our fat as a protective mechanism; many of the environmental medicine doctors talk about the solution to pollution being dilution.
And I'm wondering if we have these toxicants that are stored in fat, can we add healthy, clean fats as a way to detoxify these lipophilic toxicants that are stored in our fat? Is that essentially a detoxification strategy?
[01:11:47.23] Udo Erasmus: Yes. If you take enough fat, so it makes it out to your skin, then it will take oil-soluble, whatever is oil soluble that's dissolved in your fat tissues. It'll take that with them over time. There's actually a guy who did studies with Vietnam veterans poisoned by agent orange. Agent orange is fat soluble; it's very toxic and carcinogenic.
So what he did was he put these guys in a sauna for 15 to 30 minutes every day for three to six months. He was able to measure Agent orange in the oil part of their sweat, and he was able to monitor its decrease in the body, okay.
The guy's name is Lasseter, who did this in the early 80s, 83. I think this was one of his papers. So you can do that, but you can go at one better if you take more oil than you need. One of the ways the body gets rid of it is by burning it, and the second way the body gets rid of it goes through your pores and ends up on your skin.
So if you push, you can push the toxins out of the body by having more oil in your sweat, by taking more oil, and obviously, it should not be toxic oil because you're trying to clean out toxins. So it needs to be oil made with health in mind.
And the oils that flow best are the oils that are rich in omega-3; omega-6 is not quite as good, but pretty good. Omega-9 is okay; saturated fats, not so good because they can actually clog your pores and get you acne.
And many of those saturated fats are made from eating excess carbohydrates. So that's one, the other one is, and this one, I've never seen it in any book, is that your body has a way to get rid of all soluble toxins that nobody talks about.
And there is inside your anus; there are crypts that are part of the lymphatic system. The lymphatic system picks up oil-soluble toxins, and then where are they supposed to go? The way we learned, it was the lymphatic system picks up junk from everywhere in your body, and that dumps it into your vena cava just before it goes into the heart, right?
That's what we learn in physiology and medicine. And I said, well, that's crazy. If this is a detox system, you don't put it in the middle of the body; you want to take it to the outside. Where's the place where the lymphatic system can dump them?
Well, it turns out there are these crypts, and it dumps them in those crypts that are part of the lymphatic system that opens into your digestive tract. And every time you have a bowel movement, the overflow from those crypts gets dragged into the toilet. Well, that's cool, so then when I got poisoned by pesticides, I went one better.
I did a water enema to get rid of all the solids in my colon, and then I put in about eight ounces of oil, and did a retention enema, and swished it around so that it would go everywhere. And then when I let it out, it stunk like unbelievable, like all the pesticides I sprayed, it was disgusting.
And then I did one a month later, and it was fine, and then I went did one five years later, and it was fine, so I haven't done one since; it's been a while.
But there is a time where you can go to detox, where you literally wash out those crypts, and you don't just get rid of the overflow, but you clean out the crypts, and you do that with oil. Now when you do that, and you let out the oil, not all the oil comes out when you do that.
So you put on your underwear, and you think you're going to pass a little gas, you might end up oiling your underwear. And I'm just saying that because I have personal experience, and forewarned is forearmed. But as a way for detox, especially when is chronic.
Well, when it's chronic or when it's acute when you get a lot of toxins at one time, that's a consideration for a way, because how does healing happen? Every load you take off the body is one less thing that your system has to deal with.
And so if you take as many off, as many toxic influences off your body, then healing whatever else remains even if you don't know how to heal it. There's wisdom in the body to do that. So that means going organic, and it means getting your water clean and getting your food clean and getting fresh air.
And maybe you got to put a filter in your house, water filters an air filter and then eating in line with nature, adding enzymes that make digestion easier, adding probiotics that prevent bacteria from making more toxins in your system that then go into your system.
So there are lots of ways to do it. I can tell you a story that kind of illustrates it. I worked with a guy who, we went out every night after we worked, we had this project, an animal project. And one day, when he showed me his, like on his wrist, like just on that bone right on the wrist there, he had a sore. He said, hey, do you know what that is? I said no.
He said, well, I've had this for a few months, and it won't heal. And so I said let me think about it, because sometimes I don't know immediately, sometimes it comes to me, right? And so I noticed that he was every night when we had dinner. He drank a glass of burgundy. Well, alcohol is poison. And you know it puts a load on your liver, and your body has to deal with it.
So I said to him, why don't you see what happens if you don't have burgundy after dinner for two weeks. He said, okay, I'll do that because it bothered him. And two weeks later, it was completely healed. He said, how did you know? I said I didn't know.
But I knew that the less toxic influences you have in your lifestyle, in your body, in your food, the more energy can go into dealing with this. Because this is obviously something, your body is unable to deal with.
And then he went back to drinking his burgundy, and eventually, he died of lupus. So this was a symptom of a lupus that he had, autoimmune, right? Eventually, the lupus was destroying his blood cells faster than he could replace them, and he died of that.
[01:19:07.12] Scott: Can we use the Udo's choice for the oil retention enemas?
[01:19:03.18] Udo Erasmus: Yes.
[01:19:12.21] Scott: Okay, beautiful. Let's talk a little bit about the chronic infection aspect of things, and so many people listening dealing with chronic Lyme disease.
Do fats have any antimicrobial properties? I know you mentioned earlier they can help with oxygen delivery. How could they help in chronic infections or supporting the immune system and the production of hydrogen peroxide, for example?
[01:19:35.16] Udo Erasmus: Well, they do two things. Number one, they give your immune system more energy to do whatever it needs to do.
So they make your immune system stronger that way. But the second thing is because of their oxygen ability; they help your immune system make hydrogen peroxide. And the immune cells make hydrogen peroxide to kill bacteria, right?
And to kill whatever they kill. I mean, I don't know what all hydrogen peroxide does under the guidance of the immune system. But it makes them; it makes them better when you give your body more energy. Anything that gives the body more energy will be helpful in whatever your body has to deal with, right? So one is that then the other one is to dump, to get rid of all the toxins in your diet as much as you can.
So you always do it two ways, right? Number one, you get more of the good stuff that you need that gives you energy, and energy is the power behind healing. And is also the energy that turns over 98% of your body every year.
And that if you raise your standard, you end up with a body that's been built to a higher standard in one year; 98% of your body will have been rebuilt to a higher standard. So one is to get more energy that is the power behind healing.
Number two is reduce anything that interferes with that energy. And poisons are poisonous because either they take up space or they interfere with energy. So you bring that down. The third one is give your digestive system the support it needs, and that's always fiber, digestive enzymes, and probiotics.
Because if your digestive system has a load on it, then the immune system gets involved in digestion and is then not as free to go after other things that need to be done in the body. If you do all those three things, you could pretty much.
It's not like Lyme disease and the critters in it; these are not new things, right? These are not new things for the immune system; they've been around forever. I went to Australia, my buddy who is grossly overweight, and loves his boos and cooks and fries a lot of stuff, he got Lyme, I didn't. I was in the same place, right?
Why did he get it, and I did not. I think a lot of times, the bacteria that make us sick are, in a way, they're attracted by a mess that needs to be cleaned up. They actually have a healing function. But we can prevent them from being necessary for that healing function by being deliberate in our choices in our lifestyle.
And we have to be deliberate because we got so many bad choices available to us that we actually have to eat and live consciously.
[01:22:57.24] Scott: So we're talking there about terrain theory and keeping the environment as clean as possible so that we're not more hospitable to these microbial overgrowths.
Do you have any thoughts about neem oil or black seed oil? We're talking about fats and oils; can those be helpful in microbial overgrowth?
[01:23:17.06] Udo Erasmus: Okay. Well, neem oil has some very powerful, it's not the oil in neem oil because the oil is not particularly interesting. But the bitterness of it, I've played with neem oil, has very good health functions.
And they call it the pharmacy tree in India; I've heard it called that. And it has a wide range of benefits to the body. Black seed, again, the oil is not that interesting. Mostly omega-6 is about 40; I think 40 or 45% omega-6, right?
So I wouldn't use the oil; I'd use the spice. I would use the spice because, in the spice, spice is peppery, this one, black seed. And when Mohammed said that black seed can cure every illness except death, he was talking about the seeds.
Now I know that people make the oil, and they put it in plastic, and it's like that's already a problem; it's not an omega-3 oil, so you're not going to get omega-3s from it. So I don't use the oil; I use the seeds; the seeds are absolutely very powerful.
And the other place where I would go when we talk about infections, and viruses, funguses, bacteria whatever to the world of spices, garlic and onions, turmeric and ginger, cayenne and pepper, black seed, AMLA, Ashwagandha, mustard, citrus fruits and some of them with the peel on like limes, organic limes with the peel on and the seeds in. Intense bitters, there are some very bitter things.
Those have, I mean some of them have antiviral, anti-fungal, antibacterial, anti-cancer, anti-cardio, anti-diabetes, antioxidant, anti-inflammatory benefits in one seed.
[01:25:21.27] Scott: Anti-parasitic too.
[01:25:16.27] Udo Erasmus: Anti-parasitic, yes. If I left out any antis, they got that too. And some of them are so powerful that we are crazy not to bring those into our food.
[01:25:37.02] Scott: A lot of people listening also dealing with mold exposure from water-damaged buildings, the inflammation that results from that, the immune dysregulation. The mast cell activation.
So my understanding is that these oils can also help to dampen inflammation, but part of how they're doing that is also by helping the body to deal with leaky gut, in that they're then minimizing the undigested proteins getting to the immune system, right? So can you talk a little about inflammation and gut?
[01:26:09.20] Udo Erasmus: Yes. Well, one of the things that are really interesting about omega-3s is that when the body turns them into other molecules. One of those molecules is called a resolvin, and resolvin; it's called resolvin because it resolves inflammation.
And it's an anti-inflammatory molecule, a very powerful anti-inflammatory molecule, that is made from these very sensitive oil, essential fatty acid derivatives. Made out of DHA, and DHA is good for brain function and sperm formation, and retinal function. But it's also starting material for a whole bunch of more things.
And one of them is anti-inflammatory the resolvents, and then protectants, they're called protectants because they protect the tissue, very powerful antioxidants. Made out of the same thing that goes rancid in your body, and all that happens to make them is to the double bonds are shifted into conjugated system from being methylene interrupted.
That's pretty techie, I know. But it's like how genius is that? You get something into your body that can be a very pro-oxidant, and that could be a concern? Yes, but then you take some of it and make an antioxidant out of the same damn molecule; it's like, oh, who came up with that?
I mean sometimes when you find in nature, the way it works. It's like yes, oh, I would have never thought of it. I would have said, well, I need some other antioxidant from somewhere because this thing is peroxide. No, but nature makes it out of the peroxide. It's like, man, who came up with that, right?
[01:27:58.05] Scott: Did you want to comment at all about the role of oils in intestinal hyperpermeability?
[01:28:04.09] Udo Erasmus: Yes, they're part of the gap junctions between the cells that make the digestive tract less permeable. But again, I wouldn't just count on that. I would go and make sure that your foods are completely digested because once they're completely digested, there's nothing in them that you'll be allergic to.
Because you get the allergies, and you get the sensitivities, and you get the gut problems from molecules that weren't completely digested and leaky gut. So two ways to deal with it. One is eat raw or even take enzymes with raw food.
And the people who eat all raw, they say when you add more enzymes to it, it works even better than if they just eat everything raw. So do that, do the probiotics, do the fiber as part of your diet. It's not all supplements; it's like eat in line with nature: whole foods, fresh, raw, organic as much as possible.
And then supplement, but don't just supplement any junk because a lot of people do that. Oh, I can't eat junk because I'm taking a supplement; no, it doesn't work like that. Eat really well and then supplement, and basically play with supplements, see if they do more for you or see if they don't.
[01:29:33.06] Scott: Let's talk about the potential that the right fats have for minimizing some of the neurodegenerative conditions. If we look at MS, for example, where there may be as issues with myelin coating the nerves.
Or in cognitive decline dementia and Alzheimer's. We know that the brain is 60% fat; you mentioned that earlier. So do we anticipate that the fats can help with the myelin with cognitive function over time and minimize the potential for these neurodegenerative conditions?
[01:30:04.01] Udo Erasmus: Well, there's research that suggests that you can increase IQ by three to nine points with the right kind of oil, mostly omega-3s. And again, why? Because it's too low in the diet, the brain would be made better if it was optimal in the diet.
And the same thing with every one of the 42 essential nutrients. If you optimize your intake of all of them through foods and or supplements, no. Through foods and supplements, not or, right? If you optimize your intake of all of those, you've basically given life, life the energy that makes you, runs you weigh nothing, does everything. Is everywhere present?
Knows what to do. Uses a genetic program for getting it done. You give it the building blocks; it knows how to do the job. Whether that's immune system or its brain function. We had a woman who had, she had Alzheimer's, and we gave her a tablespoon of per 50 pounds of body weight per day. She completely came back; brain function completely came back. And she died 14 years later of something else. They were impressed.
Now I don't have a thousand cases like that, and I'm not allowed to make claims as this is a cure of Alzheimer's. No, the reason you want to take essential fatty acids is because they are essential building blocks, and when you don't get enough of the essential building blocks for body construction, for normal body construction, then your health will deteriorate in every place where they're needed, where they're not getting them.
And when you bring them back and optimize them, every place where they're insufficient will become sufficient, and all of the symptoms in every one of those places will be reversed; that's how they work; it's very specific.
Any omega-3s will reverse anything that comes from omega-3 deficiency. Omega-6 anything that comes from omega-6 deficiency. Magnesium, anything that comes from magnesium deficiency. But it's very specific; there's no like oh yes, this will fix everything. It'll only fix, so you got to look at the rest of the diet as well.
[01:32:27.13] Scott: One of our listeners asked about the use of omega-3s with fibroids and endometriosis. Wondering if you've seen benefits in those conditions?
[01:32:37.01] Udo Erasmus: There is a very strong correlation in fibroids and endometriosis with omega-6, fatty acids, assuming, I'm assuming that these are the damaged omega-6 fatty acids and lack of omega-3s perfect.
So most people so they do help, and we have seen people told us that they've improved. But again, I would not, the way the question is asked, I always have to be careful. I'm not like to diagnose, treat and prescribe, and I can't say to you, oh. Yes, omega-3s are the cure for endometriosis because there's a whole lot of other things going on.
There's a lot of psychological things going on; there are like sometimes very intense emotional things going on. They could be caused by the endometriosis, but they could also be a factor behind them. And so you literally have to give everything it's due.
[01:33:31.10] Scott: Another area in medicine that I think is highly overlooked is this whole idea of hypercoagulation, particularly in chronic Lyme disease and many chronic conditions where we have excess fibrinogen and fibrin.
And these clotting factors that actually make the blood hyper viscous or too thick. And my understanding is that there is potentially a role for oils and helping with blood viscosity, and maybe even extending on that even dealing with biofilms potentially.
[01:34:01.10] Udo Erasmus: Right. The blood viscosity, the first place to go is drink more water because dehydration is major for making your blood thicker. Also, if your blood is thicker, you can't…omega-3s help. They make platelets less sticky, for instance.
They also relax the arterial muscles, so they can lower blood pressure. They can lower high triglycerides, and those make the blood thicker as well. So there's a number of different ways, and they decrease inflammation; CRP c-reactive protein, omega-3s can lower that as well, according to the research.
And whether that's, they claim it's EPA and DHA that does that, if you take enough essential fatty acids to turn into those derivatives. EPA and DHA are not essential fatty acids; they're essential fatty acid derivatives because your body can make them if you get enough of the essential fatty acid from which they're made.
So yes, the triglycerides they can also lower cholesterol; even omega-6s can lower cholesterol. So there are lots of ways that they relax arterial muscle tone, so the blood flows better because it has more space to flow. I would make sure that my hydration was optimal and add the oil to that.
Well, the biofilms, when I worked with animals in veterinary medicine, biofilm comes from carbohydrates. And we would have to clean the dog's teeth and get the biofilms off because a lot of the nutrition that they get wasn't raw meat like it would have been in nature. And a little swigs of grasses, they ate some herbs and plants too, but mostly raw meat.
Where they didn't get the biofilm in nature. And for human beings, you get tartar on your teeth from bacteria that make a biofilm; the biofilm is made out of carbs and calcium.
But when you don't eat carbs, or you eat fewer carbs, or you don't eat the high starch vegetables or the refined starches, and you're using oil as your major fuel with lots of non-starchy vegetables. The biofilm doesn't get created nearly as effectively.
[01:36:41.03] Scott: And is that true for systemic biofilms as well, that are potentially serving as hiding places for chronic infections with that same thought process hold true?
[01:36:52.20] Udo Erasmus: Why wouldn't it?
[01:36:54.10] Scott: Okay.
[01:36:55.04] Udo Erasmus: Yes. Biofilm is biofilm.
[01:36:56.28] Scott: Great.
[01:36:57.19] Udo Erasmus: And it's created, it's like we're not creating the biofilm; the bacteria are creating the biofilm. And the bacteria, like us they just want to live. So they have their ways of protect themselves.
First, they go into a body that's out of shape, and then they make a home there. But while they're cleaning up your body and giving you symptoms and not fixing the problem because the problem is not fixed by them, the problem is fixed by your habits.
Well, they got to protect themselves from your immune system, as long as they're going to be there. And they do that; biofilm is one of the ways they do that.
[01:37:37.23] Scott: We're talking a lot about fats and oils and lipids, lots of conversation around phospholipids, for example, in the community that I generally am talking within phosphatidylcholine or phosphatidylserine and oscillator ethanolamine for example.
What is the role in this conversation for supplemental phospholipids beyond the omega-3 and omega-6?
[01:38:02.09] Udo Erasmus: I think if you live in line with nature, you don't need to supplement them because they're all made in the body. What you do need is the essential nutrients because everything depends on the essential nutrients.
Do they have a function? Sure. The cell membranes and the membranes within the cells are all made out of phospholipids. And phospholipids are just; they're like a fat that has one fatty acid clipped off and puts something else on the third carbon on the glycerol.
So sometimes, it's ethanolamine, and sometimes it's phosphate, and sometimes is phosphate with serine on them. And they have different functions. But your body knows how to do all of that, except possibly in very rare cases, where someone has a gene defect in that sense, where somebody has a gene that is unable to do that.
And usually, those people don't make it into adulthood. Usually, they die as young children because those functions are really important. And if a vital function can't be carried out in your body, then the body basically doesn't make it.
[01:39:27.12] Scott: So as we start wrapping up our conversation, I want to get in a little bit more to your product specifically. I appreciate that you've shared so much information and that this really was not intended to be commercial.
But I want to understand a little bit more about them. So I know with the Udo's oils, you have the 3-6-9 blends. You have a DHA 3-6-9 blend, which I believe is the one that has some of the algal oil or algae-derived oil. You have a high lignan blend as well. So talk to us about the DHA version compared to the 3-6-9 blends first.
[01:39:59.29] Udo Erasmus: Okay. So the DHA version, there's research that says when women are pregnant, it can be helpful to have a source of DHA even though they're pretty good at making it. And probably because most of the studies were done by people who have not optimized their omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid intake probably.
But let's say it's true, and so it makes some sense if you're going to use DHA to give it to women when they're pregnant. And maybe until the kid is five years old if they're breastfeeding for that long. Most people don't.
And then after 50, there's some research that suggests that it's helpful for people after 50 for brain function. But again, you have to go back and say, well, is this because when you're a little bit off in your diet by the time you hit 50, that catches up with you?
Or is this real? And the problem with the research is we're never comparing the research to what is the ideal health picture because we've avoided even getting, and if we did start with the real picture, and then started to look at what works and what's necessary and what's not necessary.
Probably a lot less would be necessary if we were just living in line with nature; I'll give you an example. I'm 79, and I specifically don't take fish oils. And I don't use the DHA oil, and in part, I'm doing it because I want to prove something.
Because I do live in line with nature pretty much. And so far, I have a lot of energy. I do physical work, take down trees sometimes when they're dead. I've aerated a lawn with a 300-pound machine that going sideways on hills, where you'll really have to torque it. It took me five hours; I was sore because I don't work like that every day, right?
But I have the energy. I have way more energy than I'm surprised because every time I go and do something said well, I have a lot of energy, right? Because when I'm sitting here and talking, it's not noticeable. But I do a lot of physical stuff sometimes, not all the time.
My brain works pretty well; I still remember the details. So me personally, I just take the basic blend because that's where the essential fatty acids are so that my body knows what to do with them in terms of making the derivatives, one of which is DHA.
But my partner wanted to make it, so that's why we made it. The lignan blend, they're lignans. Lignans are not lignins, which are fiber. But lignans, the richest sources flax. It has a hundred times more than the next best source. And lignans have antiviral, antifungal antibacterial, anti-cancer, anti cardio, anti-diabetes, antioxidant and anti-inflammatory functions.
[01:43:27.25] Scott: That's certainly an interesting one in the conversation of chronic Lyme disease, for example. If someone was going to incorporate one of your oils, can the high lignan blend be used on its own? Or should they use a smaller amount of that with the 369 blends?
[01:43:46.02] Udo Erasmus: No, what I would do is I would use this 3-6-9 blend for the oils, for the energy. And I would use the flax seeds and pound them up in a blender or put them in a shake because you're going to get a lot more lignans out of the flaxseed than end up in the oil. I just unsold somebody.
[01:44:05.17] Scott: You did.
[01:44:07.16] Udo Erasmus: Which is okay, because I'm interested in health. I'm interested in you getting the best, and the lignan blend is okay. But I don't use the lignan blend either.
[01:44:20.19] Scott: But I like the idea that if we're going to use one of the oil blends, that we can also get some additional antimicrobial properties if we're dealing with a chronic infection from the high lignan blend potentially.
I also love that you've talked about this a lot, but you've considered every aspect of these products. Like I never really understood exactly why does it come in a box, why is it in glass? I mean, now I obviously do. Yes, there really isn't any detail that you haven't paid attention to.
Even the idea that well, it's in a box because you want it to be protected from light. So that it then continues to be a health-promoting oil. I mean, you've really given tremendous thought to that. You have a special free gift that you're offering for listeners; your body needs an oil change eBook. I wonder if you want to say something about that to our listeners.
[01:45:11.03] Udo Erasmus: Oh yes, the “Fats That Heal: Fats That Kill” is a book that I wrote for people who are interested. And also for people that have some background. It's written for grade 9 level, but it has some diagrams in it that might not be grade nine level.
But the book is written understandable, but sometimes people look at it, and they get scared. Because oh my god, I can't possibly understand it, whatever. And so I've always wanted to write a book that is totally street level, where it doesn't get into like all the stuff we got into.
That's pretty detailed and precise, and not everybody knows how to wade through all that. So I wanted to write a book that is really easy to read. We have a course with it as well. And that's called “Your Body Needs an Oil Change”.
[01:46:17.28] Scott: Very smart, love it. My last question is the same for every guest, and that is what are some of the key things that you do on a daily basis in support of your own health?
[01:46:27.26] Udo Erasmus: You know I do a lot of things. I have a program that is eight pieces, and it starts with internal awareness. We live in the world, we live mostly interactively, but we don't spend much time actually present in the space that our body occupies.
Because there's awareness in there, life energy is in there, that get to know that because it runs the show, and it is unconditional love, and it feels that way. And there's inspiration, which is the shine of that energy. And then there's the physical body, food and fitness detox, digestion.
And then there is survival smarts, which is like being crisis-ready, learning skills, but also knowing how to be calm and calm under fire, right? And then there is social group, and then there is the natural environment, and then there's the big picture.
So eight pieces, each one of them has a different nature, a different function needs a different kind of attention on a regular basis. Goes off in a different way and responds to a different kind of intervention. And this is my overview of total health because the goal is to be fully present in all of your being and your surroundings simultaneously.
And then your life flows because you're not lost in thoughts in your head that make you blind or deaf or not able to respond with all of your being. And I do give all of those attention, so I do a stillness practice, and every day, I take time to do nothing because that's the balance for too much doing. If you look at me, this is the clutter in my life, and this is the quiet place, right? This is why I set it up this way. And the two are both presents.
And when you get too tied up in the clutter space, and you get anxious and depressed and confused, and your mind is going a mile a minute. At the same time, you're doing that; there's a place within you where there's nothing going on. And if you know how to go from one to the other, then you have cured any mental illness that you might ever get.
Or any emotional problems that are always based on thoughts and beliefs. You actually become free because now you own them. Because they don't run you, because you can go to a place where they can't go. And you can step into your mind when you need to, and you can step out of it when you don't need it.
So I do all of that, and then I do the fitness, obviously. And the survival, this survival smarts come from knowing the calm place, this place at the same time when there's a lot of crazy stuff going around. Because you have to be calm under fire to deal well with crises and emergencies so that that gets a little attention, and then people affect your health.
So pick the people that you can help, and pick the people who can help you, and don't waste your time with things that are not helpful. If you think there's something worth doing, right? So that's that. Then the environment, I like gardening, and I go for walks in the mountains, in the forest, and I stick my feet in the water, I call it grounding.
But it's not grounding; it's really watering. So there are all kinds of, I mean, and then the big picture is that here I am in a temporary, in a terminal condition called the human body. In an infinite universe, and to be okay with both.
And to do what I can in the time I have because I feel taken care of, to help to do what needs to be done, and to enjoy. Purpose one is to enjoy the gift; purpose two is to help; it's very simple in a way. It's complicated in a way, but it's really simple.
[01:50:53.27] Scott: Beautiful, I love that.
[01:50:55.29] Udo Erasmus: And I do that pretty much; I live like that, I'm obviously a work in progress, I get upset sometimes. But a lot less than I did when I was younger.
[01:51:06.19] Scott: Sure, yes.
[01:51:08.01] Udo Erasmus: I do stupid things sometimes, but a lot less than I did when I was younger. And so I'm more conscious and more present, and everything works better when we're present in the space our body occupies.
[01:51:20.02] Scott: Absolutely beautiful. This has been such a full-fat conversation. I feel incredibly satiated by our discussion and all of the great information.
[01:51:32.00] Udo Erasmus: Ready to throw up?
[01:51:33.27] Scott: No, not ready to throw up.
[01:51:36.07] Udo Erasmus: Okay. Just asking .
[01:51:37.20] Scott: Just really appreciate all that you do, all the great information that you've shared. Bringing up how important this fat conversation is for our health and all the time that you spent with us today to generously share this information, so thank you, Udo.
[01:51:52.18] Scott: And you asked all the questions, you asked really great questions, because you obviously thought about it, you obviously do your homework. And you're an amplifier for a message. So if it wasn't for you, I'd be talking to myself in the bathroom mirror.
[01:52:06.08] Scott: Well, thank you so much, Udo, and thank you for making the choice to be here today.
[01:52:11.12] Udo Erasmus: Thank you.
[01:52:11.21] Scott: All right, be well.
[01:52:13.09] To learn more about today's guest, visit UdoErasmus.com that's Udo, U-D-O Erasmus E-R-A-S-M-U-S.com UdoErasmus.com.
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