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In this episode, you will learn about how to create a healthy gut.
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About My Guest
My guest for this episode is Steven Wright. Steven Wright is a medical engineer, Kalish Functional Medicine Institute Graduate, and gut health specialist. He spent close to $400,000 overcoming his own health challenges using everything from western medicine to shamans. Steven is the founder of healthygut.com. He lives in Boulder, CO with his fiancé Shay and their two dogs.
- Why are so many people dealing with SIBO today?
- What are the upstream issues and less commonly discussed contributors to SIBO?
- What is the migrating motor complex?
- What is the role of parasites in gut health?
- What contributes to low stomach acid? How can it be tested for?
- Is acid reflux actually a lack of stomach acid?
- Can hydrochloric acid be used in people that have H. Pylori?
- What are the different enzymes that are needed for optimal digestion and assimilation?
- What role do SCFAs like butyrate play in gut health?
- Can addressing stomach acid, enzymes, and SCFAs reduce histamine and improve food options for those on restricted diets?
- What is the role of prebiotics, probiotics, and postbiotics in supporting the microbiome?
- How are HCL Guard+™, HoloZyme™, and Tributyrin-X™ unique? What symptoms do people report improve with them? How are they dosed?
- How might Xylanase in HoloZyme™ help with sensitivity to phenolics?
- Do people generally tolerate enzymes created from Aspergillus?
- Are there any contraindications for the Healthy Gut products?
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July 13, 2021
Transcript Disclaimer: Transcripts are intended to provide optimized access to information contained in the podcast. They are not a full replacement for the discussion. Timestamps are provided to facilitate finding portions of the conversation. Errors and omissions may be present as the transcript is not created by someone familiar with the topics being discussed. Please Contact Me with any corrections.
[00:00:00.25] Welcome to BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts, empowering your better health. And now, here's Scott, your Better Health Guy.
[00:00:14.01] The content of this show is for informational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any illness or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or as information to facilitate self-treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health-related decisions with your own personal medical authority.
[00:00:34.15] Scott: Hello everyone, and welcome to episode number 149 of the BetterHealthGuy Blogcast series. Today's guest is Steven Wright, and the topic of the show is the Healthy Gut. Steven Wright is a medical engineer, Kalish Functional Medicine Institute graduate, and gut health specialist.
He has spent close to $400,000 overcoming his own health challenges using everything from western medicine to shamans. Steven is the founder of HealthyGut.com. He lives in Boulder, Colorado, with his fiancée Shay and their two dogs.
And now, my interview with Steven Wright.
First, I want to thank our mutual friend, Beth O'Hara, for having been how I found out about your story, your work, and your products. I am personally using your Tributyrin-X™ product, really looking forward today to digging into how to create a healthy gut. Thanks so much for being here, Steven.
[00:01:32.29] Steven W.: Yes, thanks, Scott, for hosting this show and having me on; I'm a big fan.
[00:01:37.05] Scott: You bet, thanks. Talk to us about your own health journey, your challenges, some of the tools that you explored and how that led to your passion to do the work that you do today.
[00:01:48.09] Steven W.: Yes. So I like to think of people into two categories, either from birth, they chronically have had health issues, or I'm one of those people. I had a birth defect, and I've had gut issues my entire life.
And then I made it worse with a dermatologist that gave me four years of antibiotics for my skin. And then a nice Animal House-like beer and pizza diet for college. And so, I've had my own issues my whole life. Other people are what I call trigger clients, and they have a big life event, and then everything changes.
But mine's a long slow burn, with a lot of embarrassing stories that we don't need to cover. But basically, it came to a head when I was having bloating and gas so bad. I was a consultant at KPMG; I was working on big Fortune 100 projects.
And it didn't matter if I ate chicken salad, like just lettuce and chicken or if I ate like a burger and beer. But I would double over in pain and like softly cry at my desk. And then, if you've ever been that bloated, you know the one thing you want to do is fart.
And unfortunately, usually, it smells. And so my co-workers complained, and my boss called me into his office one afternoon and said basically, you're the smelly guy, your co-workers are complaining, you have to get this under control otherwise we have a problem.
And so that was my wake-up call. I think most of us who have had a health issue, we have emotional breaking points where we wake up. And so that was my awakening in 2008, and then that sent me into the western medical system, which didn't offer me much.
They screened me for celiac genes, which I didn't have. And they gave me antibiotics and Metamucil and whole grains, and none of that worked. So I got lucky, I found the Specific Carbohydrate Diet through one of my best friends, Jordan Reasoner, and started it, and it like reduced 50% of my bloating in one week.
And I was like, wow, you're telling me I could have agency, I could figure this out. Like, I don't have to be a "doctor" to figure this out like I have some control.
And that kind of just, the embarrassment and anger launched me on what's become an 11-12 year journey here, and many hundreds of thousands of dollars into okay, if someone else has had this, I can't be the only one. Let me find out what worked for them, and try it on myself, and then look into the literature, into biology, and try to figure out why would this add up.
And so dietary change was huge; supplements from day one were huge. Functional medicine really turned my life around. And then, I got disillusioned with functional medicine, and I was still having some visceral hypersensitivity.
And so I kind of left the science and the supplements and all the advanced lab testing and found all of my trauma for my birth and some other things that happened to me.
And did a lot of healing in those realms to have a huge breakthrough as well, just as big as the other breakthroughs. And so now I am full circle coming back, trying to talk about how important both are.
[00:04:53.11] Scott: So it's always nice when your mess becomes your message, or your pain becomes your purpose, and now you're able to help so many other people. SIBO or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth has become such a common issue in recent years.
I think back five to eight years ago, and I probably never really heard much about it. And now it seems like everybody particularly, if they're dealing with chronic Lyme disease or mold illness or a lot of these complex chronic conditions.
It seems like SIBO is often a player or a piece of the puzzle. Why do you think so many people today are dealing with chronic gut issues, including SIBO?
[00:05:29.09] Steven W.: Well, I think the SIBO thing is actually due to better testing and better awareness. I think it's been around probably this whole time and explains a lot of the IBS crowd.
But now, you can't deny that it does appear that people are turning up sicker and sicker than what they used to like five to ten years ago even. So I mean, we could blame that on environmental toxins; we could blame that on increased use of technology and stress and parasympathetic tone loss.
I think there's a lot there that, it also appears lately that there's just been a lot of emotion, you know there's higher emotions, people are experiencing heightened states of emotion and maybe bringing up some stuff from their past.
So I'm not totally sure, but I do believe that with SIBO part of it is just better testing methods and better awareness to find what was already troubling people a long time ago.
[00:06:27.10] Scott: So let's dig in then a little more to your thoughts on SIBO. My perspective on SIBO is that there's often an upstream neurological issue, a vagus nerve issue, something that's impacting the migrating motor complex.
Do you think that SIBO can be resolved with a focus on killing a bug, killing a microbe? Or is that only part of a broader approach to managing or dealing with SIBO?
[00:06:50.07] Steven W.: I think you're spot on; I think we have very similar beliefs here. I like to think about things, like I went from like, I fall for everything, right? That's why I spent so much money. I'm like, what's the newest miracle, and what's the newest test? Let me get tested.
I've been doing that for 11 or 12 years, and I was doing that in performance and athletics before that. And so I was like, yes, all these killing agents, and then the results just don't seem to back that up when you look at some of these SIBO killing protocols.
And so the question is why, why does it recur so much? Why do people have such a struggle? And I think it's because we are often not looking at the conditions that created the ecosystem for it to grow in the first place.
And so the killing program is only one small step, honestly, in getting rid of SIBO and keeping SIBO gone. I think, like did they have parasympathetic tone issues? Do they have low stomach acid that is throwing off the pH?
Do they have low enzyme function, so the molecules are like funky sized and you kind of just have a bunch of food sitting around for nature to eat? So I think that's what's happening, is we're not looking at the conditions that set up the SIBO growth.
[00:08:09.28] Scott: What are some of the factors that maybe lead to SIBO that are less commonly discussed?
[00:08:16.14] Steven W.: Well, we talked about parasympathetic tone and the migrating motor complex. It is really important that if you're someone whose have a lot of gut issues that are not going away. Like go in and get an endoscopy, a colonoscopy.
Like there are double loop syndromes, and there are like actual structural issues. And I just had this actually, in our community where this woman was constipated, and I threw everything. And I even spent time trying to figure out new constipation ideas for her, and it turned out that she had had a prior surgery, and the doctor had left some like extra clips and things inside of her belly from a pregnancy.
And it took basically removing those and kind of repositioning the intestines, and now she's having a totally different experience. And so don't scoff that stuff off; it's very important. Hopefully, insurance will cover it for you. But there are other things like head traumas.
Immediately if you have a head trauma, we know that you have a leaky brain and a leaky gut, the same Zonulin and Occludin and all these same blood-brain sorts of like rubber bands that connect; we'll talk more about that, I'm sure here in a bit.
But they're the same, gut and brain. So those things, like I said, low stomach acid and whatnot. But I would pay attention to parasympathetic setup, pay attention to the physical deformities, traumas, those types of things.
[00:09:50.20] Scott: Excellent. In functional medicine, I think practitioners often think of starting with the gut, and yet some of my mentors, like Dr. Neil Nathan, Dr. Ann Corson, they suggest that you really need to consider the external environment first and address mold and mycotoxin exposures which really are constant assaults on the gut.
That if we ignore those, that can make our gut-focused protocols less successful. And I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on reducing or eliminating some of the inciting factors early on?
[00:10:21.21] Steven W.: I think it's very important to take a look at the environment and basically work on the detox pathways. Being trained at the Kalish Institute, Dan has a very specific way in which he does healing.
And making sure that the liver pathways and making sure that the gut pathways are opened up. Because a lot of people forget that pooping is phase three detoxification, you've got to get that stuff out. And so I'm all about the environment, but it's only if poop is regulated.
So if you're not having a really good Bristol #4, if you're constipated, or you're having loose stools, that means you're either holding toxins, or you're not getting the nutrients from the food you need to heal from those toxins.
And so I'm a both end, I like to work on the mechanics of the digestion from day one, including what does it take in your stomach or your small intestine or large intestine to have good absorption and good illumination, at the same time that you're trying to eliminate the environmental issues and support whatever binder, whatever protocol you need to be on there.
[00:11:29.23] Scott: Excellent. Yes, I love Anne Corson's analogy that mycotoxins, in terms of what they do to the gut, are like throwing sparks on a silk scarf.
That kind of really makes it obvious, right? Let's talk about the migrating motor complex for people maybe that are not familiar with that; what is it? And what are some of the strategies that you suggest for supporting the migrating motor complex? Why is it important?
[00:11:55.12] Steven W.: So the migrating motor complex is like the small sister to the peristaltic waves, and it's a house cleaning operation basically that happens after we eat several hours, or at least usually takes three to four hours for it to be activated. It's an electromechanical sort of series of waves that clean things up.
And so one of the big thoughts on why we have a SIBO or a SIFO or a Candida or whatever is that the migrating motor complex is being inhibited through snacking, through stress and parasympathetic tone issues.
And essentially, again, going back to my belief around ecosystem, is that you're setting up the conditions to allow microbes to just hang out inside your small intestine where we really don't want them on a regular basis, at least in those high numbers.
And so having a functioning motor complex, migrating motor complex I think is really ideal for health. And one of your best defenses, honestly.
[00:13:04.12] Scott: So things we can do then it sounds like eating less frequently, not rushing when we're eating. I know in prior interviews, you've mentioned that it kind of takes three to four hours for this migrating motor complex to kick in.
So if we're like snacking throughout the day, potentially, then we're keeping that janitorial service from really doing what it needs to do. And so that snacking piece sounds like it's potentially important. And then if we step a little bit out of the migrating motor complex, which is really more small intestine.
But think about motility, which is really a broader conversation from the top to the bottom, pun intended. And we think about that whole peristalsis that you mentioned, but really motility in general. What are some of the factors that impact motility more broadly? And how do we improve that?
[00:13:50.15] Steven W.: Yes. I mean, the weird thing is digestion starts with your smell. Like the moment you smell your food, actually, you're kicking off hormones like gastrin and CCK, and all these cool things start to happen.
Your stomach starts to produce more acid. And so digestion starts from the moment you smell food. And motility begins in that conversation as well. And so, one of the biggest drivers of motility is the pH changing as it flows from your mouth into your stomach, and your small intestine, and into your large intestine.
And if that pH is off, starting in your stomach, your body has to either try to adjust by dumping more bicarbonate in, or it can't adjust. Like if you have low stomach acid, there's not really much you can do. Like if you're off from the stomach down, you're signing up for probably messed up motility the whole way down.
But if you then throw in like low enzyme function, the small intestine and/or like microbiome dysbiosis or an overgrowth. Like all these things are kicking off toxins and inflammation, and you could speed up or slow down in each sort of phase or organ complex, if you will, throughout the system.
And so motility is really complex, and I'm not even sure that we totally get it as a whole group of clinicians yet. But we do know that pH is a huge part of it. We know that sympathetic tone, enzyme function matter. And we know that certain people just seem to be born with a phenotype for faster or slower. And so what drives that is a neurotransmitter issue in the gut? Is it something else I think we'll find out in the coming years?
[00:15:44.09] Scott: Yes. It is interesting how many factors play a role. I think thyroid potentially is even one, right? If you have low thyroid, then that can also affect this whole motility conversation.
In your clinical experience, working with your coaching clients, how might a SIBO approach differ if one has, let's say, hydrogen versus methane versus hydrogen sulfide? I mean, are you finding clinically that there needs to be a different approach? Or does the same approach generally seem to work regardless of the type of SIBO?
[00:16:15.00] Steven W.: So I haven't been seeing people one-on-one in about five years. So I did see about 350, like really intense clients; you don't come to see somebody like me until you've been through a lot of functional medicine practitioners.
And so it's been a long time. And so back five years ago, we didn't know that much about these various types of SIBO. I thought we had pretty good success, like around 70 to 80% success for those clients. And what I think we did a little differently than what is, I hear mostly talked about these days; I hear a lot of talk about what's the right killing agent.
Is it Rifaximin? Is it an herb? Is it garlic? What is it? Back then, and I still think this applies, is again I was very focused on what else can I control? What other variables will help me get the best results? And so we did a lot of protocols.
All of our protocols for SIBO included N-Acetyl-Cysteine, which is a biofilm disruptor, especially important for H. Pylori, which we might cover later. We use partially hydrolyzed guar gum, which is shown in the research, to improve outcomes.
We use Interphase Plus, which is a biofilm disruptor from Klaire labs. And so the other thing is to your point earlier, even if someone presented right away with a gut issues like SIBO, we first went and checked detoxification.
Are they working? Like are they super sensitive? Because we want the, I think my approach is we want the body's own immunity helping us with this killing program. Otherwise, we're just setting up the conditions for it to recur again, right?
If the immunity doesn't turn back on, if the gut's natural defense mechanisms aren't back on, the moment we stop the killing protocol. If everything's not set up for the migrating motor complex, and the acid and all that to keep working, like I mean, you're just guaranteed basically to get overgrowth again. I mean, how are you going to prevent it. You don't have an army waiting to help you.
[00:18:24.23] Scott: Yes, that's been my observation as well. It seems like people do well when they have a killing focus, and then they stop, and then the symptoms tend to come back unless you address some of these upstream issues.
Let's talk a little bit about parasites. I don't think really any gut conversation would be complete without some touching on the parasite topics. I'm wondering what do you think the role of parasites is in chronic health conditions, and what are some of the tools that you reach for in ridding the body of parasites?
[00:18:53.15] Steven W.: I mean, shoot if you have a big parasite, especially like some nasty one like E. Histolytica or Giardia, like you're probably never going to feel better until you get rid of those. So some of my biggest takeaways are, again, I have an engineering lens to the world, and so I always want to look at all the inputs and outputs and how can I control the outcome I want.
And so one of the things that I learned is that stool testing technology is not that good. In fact, I'm doing like a microbiome test on myself with all the top labs right now with the same sample. And I've already seen that they're not going to show the same gross across labs.
And so, I would highly recommend someone if they're stuck to use two GI stool tests at the same time from the same samples. You're looking for the infections, and each lab has better ability to detect certain types, and they have different protocols.
So I highly encourage you, if you're already this deep in the rabbit hole, spend the extra 300 to 400 and run two tests at the same time. Because I think the other thing is the type of parasite really matters or worm, or whatever because there's some really awesome pharmacological options for worms, or even fungus growth, like Nystatin is amazing.
So the type of infection, I think knowing that can really inform your protocol. And so if you can find that and use a really high success thing like a pinworm option or something from a pharma company, you're going to be way better off than just randomly throwing a lot of herbals at something.
And so that's the other thing is that I tended to see, and I don't know if this is still true, but it seems like a lot of practitioners are maybe scared of using higher doses. So we use pretty high doses of Artemisia, of Wormwood, of Olive leaf and Oregano oil.
And these came from Dr. Kalish, these came from other practitioners like Dr. Allison Siebecker, so these are my mentors. So we did eight-week killing cycles, and we did higher doses than I see a lot of people using, and we did the pre-testing with two tests, and we did the post-testing with two tests. And I thought we got really good results doing it that way.
[00:21:24.16] Scott: You mentioned earlier that the pH or stomach acid is really critical, even in this whole motility from top to bottom. So what are some of the contributors to low stomach acid or higher pH than would be optimal for digestion?
[00:21:40.03] Steven W.: Well, we're beating the dead horse here. But parasympathetic tone and stress, I know that's so annoying to hear as related to this. Yes, so critical. Without it, you literally, if you're in sympathetic drive or sympathetic mode, you literally are not going to create stomach acid.
I mean, that's why they tell you not to go swimming. Well, one of the reasons why they tell you not to go swimming after you eat. You're not going to make the stomach acid and complete the digestion process if you go play in the water.
Grandma did have a lot of wisdom inside of her when she was sharing some of these things. Other things can be zinc deficiencies, B vitamin deficiencies. So you can have mineral and electrolyte issues, and another huge one is H. pylori infections, that is a huge driver of low stomach acid.
So you couple our western worlds with high stress, low sympathetic tone. You get some mineral deficiencies, maybe an infection like H. pylori like what I had. And it's a pretty easy thing to create, actually.
[00:22:43.25] Scott: Let's talk about some of the ways to explore the stomach acid or pH, if it's low, which I believe is hypochlorhydria. How might you identify that maybe your pH in your stomach is too alkaline, which is not then going to support optimal digestion?
[00:23:01.23] Steven W.: So the gold standard, if you will, is the Heidelberg test, it's you swallow a capsule is attached to a string. You do like a challenge bicarbonate challenge. There's also a GI pill capsule test now that's pretty cool.
Both of these are advanced tests that you have to find a practitioner who has the machine in their office; it's usually $300 to $500 depending on where you are in the country. And it's frankly just really hard to access, and a lot of money.
But that is the gold standard way of doing it. The second best way and the most recommended way by myself, and by, I think most people is to do a Betaine HCL challenge test, where you literally take a capsule of betaine HCL with a regular meal size that has some protein.
And you sort of work up in dosage to find out do you have loose stools, or do you have some sort of burning or something that indicates too much acid. There are a lot of other things out there, like baking soda test, and I used to talk about that.
But I think that's just such a waste of time and money at this point when the results are just it's so hard to figure out.
[00:24:14.02] Scott: You mentioned H. pylori, and I know that some suggest when I did my health coaching thing a few years ago.
Some people suggest that adding hydrochloric acid is not a good idea if H. pylori is still present and that the H. pylori should be eradicated or addressed or treated before adding hydrochloric acid. I'm wondering what your experience has been.
[00:24:36.03] Steven W.: So I think that's an utter myth that I hope dies someday. And so the origins from my belief on that myth is that the standard western medical option is triple antibiotic therapy. So you take like three different types of antibiotics.
And the success ratio on that is like not that good. So they started adding in like acid blockers to that combo to improve the success. So I think early on, there was a lot of practitioners who had a hard time getting results for treating H. pylori.
And then that was a pharmacological option that seemed to show benefit, so then it started to spread. But if we think back to ecosystem and back to biology, what is H. pylori wants to do? Well, one thing is when it connects with the body, it basically sends out signals and messengers to shut down acid production around it.
So it wants to live in a higher pH environment. And so, by not supplementing with HCL or helping with the HCL production, we're essentially giving it free reign to live better. We're making it easier for it to be alive. And so I just think that's silly to give it another advantage, even if you think you're going to kill it with your protocols.
Again, I'm all about setting up the conditions for when you exit the killing phase that your body keeps going. I saw well over 50 H. pylori issues, and we put them on a high doses of HCL whenever warranted. And we never had an issue with it.
[00:26:12.12] Scott: Let's talk a little bit about acid reflux or GERD. I think most people think that when they have that, they have too much acid.
And my understanding is that it's often actually low stomach acid that leads to what people think of as acid reflux. And so interested in your thoughts, and then how might some of the common pharmaceuticals like the proton pump inhibitors or PPIs. How might those actually be contributing to some of the gut challenges people experience?
[00:26:40.10] Steven W.: Yes. I mean, other mentors of mine, Dr. Jonathan Wright and Dr. Steven Sandburg Lewis, they actually had some of the first Heidelberg machines. And we're like really early into this stuff.
And so they both are quoted publicly saying that when someone came in with acid reflux or GERD-like symptoms, and they ran them through the gold standard for do you have low stomach acid? They would find between 70 to 85 percent of these people had low acid.
So just because you have the heartburn or the GERD does not mean you have low acid. But it does suggest that you have a high probability to have it. And then if you look at PPIs, and you go look at the warnings on the labels. If you look at the research studies, essentially, what it is doing is it's stopping your acid production in order to take away your pain.
I understand because I've had decent amount of heartburn in my life, that the pain does feel like too much. Too much acid, it's like right there, and it's really terrible, honestly. I actually had a girlfriend once go to the hospital because she was having a really bad acid reflux.
But she thought it was like a medical emergency beyond that. And so, for some people, this is a really hardcore thing. So the issue is that PPIs were never really studied beyond 8 to 12 weeks.
And then when you think about what you're doing when you give up your acid, number one of the coolest things about acid is it helps the protein molecules, which are folded up in these balls, it basically opens them up like almost like a flower.
It starts to unfold the proteins so that the enzymes layer can do their work to actually absorb those amino acids. So if you're going to start malabsorbing calcium, magnesium, vitamin B12, B5, amino acids, you're going to create long-term issues.
And so now they see long-term issues of SIBO risk going up, osteoporosis going up, all kinds of sort of systemic risks to not having proper stomach acid.
Which I still think is so boring, and I can't believe that we're still talking about this like eight years after I first wrote about it. But like it's fundamental, it's as fundamental as organic food, in my opinion.
[00:28:56.22] Scott: Let's talk about the different types of enzymes that are necessary for digestion, for assimilation. How are pancreatic enzymes different from brush border enzymes? And why are they important?
[00:29:09.17] Steven W.: So enzymes I think are, they're as important as magnesium or anything else for life honestly. And so we have mouth enzymes; we have, like you said, pancreatic enzymes that are coming from the pancreas.
We have brush water enzymes that are coming from our villi, and they all serve a purpose. And we have also stomach enzymes, pepsin. And so the purpose is to basically take our food, which like let's say you think of a walnut, or we could say a piece of steak because we were just talking about what happens when a protein is an acid.
We got to like most of us. I am super guilty; most of us aren't taking 25 bites, right? Like we're a little lazy on our biting. And so I mean, think about trying to crush little walnut pieces in your fingers, like your body's trying to do that.
And so that requires pressure, it requires acid, and it requires this enzyme activity. And so the higher up enzymes like in the stomach and the mouth and the pancreatic enzymes, are kind of like your big guns or your like infantry.
And they really begin to break the really complex structures down into smaller, more easily manageable molecules. And then you have your brush boarder enzymes, and your microbiome enzymes that come in at the end, and sort of cleave these what went from like 16 chains down to 8, and then they take it down to maybe one chain in the case of like glucose or something like that.
And so if you don't have good pancreatic enzyme function, or if you have low acid because enzymes they only work in certain pH ranges, you're going to struggle with just the big food groups. Amylase is carbohydrates; proteases is proteins; lipase is fats.
But if you get down to people who struggle with milk, well, that's a lactase issue, that's a brush boarder thing. Other carbohydrate issues and glucose, high glucose can be traced back to some brush border issues.
And if we think about what happens in a parasite infection or SIBO infection, like that's just creating a bunch of blunted villi, and those villi are what you need to release those brush border enzymes. And then, if you have a microbiome dysbiosis, you're losing those enzymes.
And so that's kind of how they all play together; they're all super important, each one of them. And maintaining them through chronic health and then into aging is super important and honestly kind of hard to do.
[00:31:44.28] Scott: Let's talk a little bit about bitters, prior podcast guest Ann Louise Gittleman says bitters are better.
Do you recommend incorporating bitters into people's GI focus routines? And does supporting bile flow then help to minimize SIBO, given that bile can essentially act like a detergent?
[00:32:05.10] Steven W.: Yes, I think bile super cool. Like it's such a cool.
[00:32:10.19] Scott: Another bilephile.
[00:32:12.14] Steven W.: Yes, it's so cool. And I'm still trying to completely understand it; I have to say that it seems really complex at this point and hard to understand. So I'm a big fan of TUDCA, honestly for bile. You can use taurine as well, maybe Beetroot as well, you don't have to use TUDCA.
I think those substances have a better chance of helping your bile flow than bitters. And I know bitters are from grandma's kitchen, and there's a lot of people that really love bitters. My success with them has been so low that I just don't put much faith in them.
And so I'm an engineer like. Literally, I don't care what the intervention is as long as it's safe and we get really good outcomes. Like better than 50% outcomes. And with bitters, I just never know who's going to respond or who's not.
[00:33:05.18] Scott: Yes, I actually like bitters a lot; the challenge, I think, is you actually have to taste it, so they have to go on the tongue. I find they're hard from a compliance perspective, and it's interesting that you brought up TUDCA because I've already had my TUDCA today.
I think over the last several years with more people; I think Jay Davidson and Todd Watts, and some of those people that really kind of brought some awareness around TUDCA. I definitely think that can be a phenomenal tool as well.
And I'm happy that there's a nice abbreviation for it because it's a little Tauro-urso-deoxycholic or something like that, right? Okay, beautiful, so that's really good insight on the bitters conversation.
Let's talk about the short-chain fatty acids, the most well-known probably being butyrate. Why is it important? And what are some of the things that butyrate can do in support of our health?
[00:33:52.19] Steven W.: Yes. So short-chain fatty acids are like my most exciting project; I mean, I love enzymes. But short-chain fatty acids are, I think, the biggest breakthrough that I've seen as far as interventions go in the last 11 years.
And so, what are short-chain fatty acids? Well, they're the littler or shorter cousins of your medium-chain triglycerides. Everybody knows what MCTs are; short-chain fatty acids are literally fatty molecules that are shorter.
And the short-chain fatty acids like butyrate are the poop, if you will or the byproduct of your microbiome when it comes in contact with fermentable matter. And so we've all seen the studies, we've heard the research that eating vegetables increases our lifespan and our health, and there's a lot of reasons for that.
And I think one of the reasons that it's not being said is without those vegetables and that fermentable matter, our short-chain fatty acid production is going to go down. And so these short-chain fatty acids have both big local effects in the gut, as well as systemic effects around the body.
And butyrate is the most studied; it's many decades old. It's been used in animals for over 30 or 40 years now, and it's just so cool. Because for one, almost every condition from IBS to rheumatoid arthritis to MS to neurological issues, asthma, allergies all these things when we check for is your butyrate production low. It's pretty much always found to be low in many of these conditions.
And so why does that matter? Well, locally, inside of the lower small intestine, in the upper large intestine, which is where the majority of your microbiome is, and where the majority of the short-chain fatty acids are produced. It's probably like 80-20, 80% in your upper large intestine, 20% of your lower small intestine.
It produces at least in the colon area; 70 percent of the metabolic activity runs off butyrate. And that's really important; recently there's some new research on this. Is that metabolic action? The cells suck in the butyrate, and it requires extra oxygen to do the metabolic process.
Which takes oxygen out of the large intestine, which then acidifies the large intestine and creates a low oxygen environment. Which is again, this is why I love ecosystems and setting up the conditions; those are the conditions we want for a really diverse and healthy microbiome. You always hear about anaerobic bacteria, anaerobic means without oxygen.
So if we have a higher oxygen content, where we're supposed to have a microbiome. We're literally not giving the microbes we want to be there the right conditions for them to be there. And so that's one of the reasons why I love this research, why I think the interventions are showing such promise. But they go way beyond the gut.
They stabilize the mast cells in the gut; they stabilize mucous layers and tight junctions. But there's activity in the brain, and the bone systems, and the liver systems. So it really is kind of a magnesium like compound; butyrate is anyways. It just seems to be involved almost everywhere we look.
[00:37:08.18] Scott: Let's talk about some of the other short-chain fatty acids. I know there's acetic acid and propionic acid. I don't hear much about those as compared to butyrate. So do those matter? Can they be supplemented? Or are they really not something we need to be too focused on?
[00:37:25.03] Steven W.: Well, they're definitely important for health, and like a healthy body. The research has been really mixed around could they be inflammatory, in what cases should they be used and not used
Almost no research at this point on acetate in human's propionate is just starting. And it's like just like you're very simple healthy people taking it and what happens at this point. So I think they're really important, and you want to see that type of production in a body, but from like what do they do and why don't we hear about them yet, I just don't think we know yet.
[00:38:08.11] Scott: Let's talk a little more about mast cell activation syndrome, the extreme sensitivities that people have. Lots of people not able to tolerate very many foods in their diet.
So if we address the stomach acid, the enzymes, the short-chain fatty acids with the butyrate. Can that have an impact then on reducing histamine? Reducing a lot of these food sensitivities? And have you seen people being able then to increase the variety of foods and tolerate those in their diets?
[00:38:39.17] Steven W.: Yes, this is the most exciting thing I've seen in the last two years. I did not expect this; quite honestly, I personally don't have histamine issues, so it was never a huge focus for me. But being close friend with Beth, and sort of what seems to be more and more histamine awareness, this just keeps coming up.
And the answer is yes, the answer is that I've never seen people stuck on like five or ten food diets be able to double or triple their amount of allowable foods in like six to eight weeks like this before. And most of it comes down to our Tributyrin supplement, and we'll talk more about that in a bit.
But what we know is that butyrate does stabilize the mast cells, and it does help with the conditions that would set up food sensitivity. So leaky gut, we used to think of as just a tight junction issue, like the rubber bands if you're not familiar that hold the one layer of your gut cells together.
Now we know that it's actually four layers. You have these defensive molecules like alpha defensin, beta-defensin, intestinal alkaline phosphatase, secretory IgA. Then you have your microbiome, and then you have your mucous layers.
And so that is all protecting those tight junctions. And so, in general, to have food sensitivities, we have to get proteins across that series of layers into the GALT area, and the immune system has to react to it. And then you have these issues; then you have these systemic issues.
So butyrate produces or helps MUC2 express, which produces mucus and helps heal those mucous membranes. And so I think there's about to be like a mucus; I forgot what you called the bile acid phile. But there's about to be like a mucous explosion.
I think everybody's going to be talking mucus in like 18 months, because if you can, if you can separate the inner workings of the gut from the cells, and the mast cells and everything and let it be how it's normally supposed to be, I think you just generally get somebody who can tolerate more foods. And so we've had people like literally had somebody post.
And again, so obviously our products don't heal any condition, these results aren't typical blah, blah, blah. But we had somebody who went to the hospital from eating a strawberry and had just crazy MCAS. That was in January or February of last year.
Around Thanksgiving time, she was able to share red wine with her family after using these protocols and these supplements. And then we had a couple of emails I shared with you yesterday of just people who've tried the quercetins, and they've tried the normal mast cell stabilizing things, and just kind of hit a roadblock.
And then have the ability to just not get all snotty and just have all the reactions and the tachycardia. So it's been really cool, and it's one of the best use cases, I think, for butyrates.
[00:41:46.28] Scott: Yes, that's super exciting. When we think about mast cell activation, I do tend to, as you pointed out, think about intestinal hyperpermeability, about leaky gut, about these molecules getting to, essentially getting exposed to the immune system in larger form than they should be.
You talked about butyrate being helpful there, the Tributyrin-X™. Are there specific things that we should be doing to decrease intestinal hyperpermeability or to minimize it as much as possible beyond using things like butyrate?
[00:42:16.26] Steven W.: I think anybody with leaky gut should be on a high-dose enzyme product, whether it's ours or someone else's. I think you're just again setting up the conditions to allow your body to react to these foods.
Anything that you can remove and let your body sort of conserve resources, those enzymes are going to ensure that your molecules aren't too big or are misshapen, and such that your body would react to them. So I think that's a huge thing.
I mean, I would hope on a podcast like this it goes without saying, but if you're reacting to a food, you should try to remove it for at least six weeks, if not longer, and then bring in some of these options. I do think that l-glutamine for people who can tolerate it in high enough doses can still be helpful for people who might be low in it. It's just not as many people seem to get that big improvement.
But definitely, if you're going to use it, you have to try 30 plus grams a day. You can go up to 80; that's what they use in burn units. So I think yes, from a leaky gut perspective, it's like are the molecules chopped down properly and able to be absorbed?
Then they won't cross the leaky gut. What can we do to improve that barrier? I think like l-glutamine, butyrate's things like that. There's also probiotics and prebiotics that can help with rebuilding your microbiome diversity and healing that up too.
[00:43:44.23] Scott: Yes. And for people listening, with the l-glutamine, just make sure you're talking with your practitioner. There are some people, and given that a lot of people listening are more sensitive, there are some people that glutamine can actually increase glutamate, and so we want to make sure that that's being considered as well.
You mentioned some of the probiotic type things, so where in this conversation do you put prebiotics and probiotics and post-biotics in terms of your overall gut health model?
And are they something that should be incorporated beyond the hydrochloric acid, and the enzymes, and the short-chain fatty acids that you've already formulated?
[00:44:20.19] Steven W.: So I think they're awesome. I use them every day; I'm always researching them. But I think they come secondary to what we just said. So I focus on the ecology. First the biology. Are we setting up the conditions to do the job we're asking the body to do?
And frankly, I have a rule of thirds. I haven't found anybody who can invalidate this yet; maybe you will live here. But I always, every year, I ask all of my practitioner friends, all my crazy friends, like what probiotic are you using and what are you seeing in your population of patients?
And every year, the answer has been the same for the last six years. Which is one-third of people who are taking, name the best probiotic you can come up with, all the major brands, I don't have to name them. One-third of people take it, and they react to it; they're sensitive to it.
One-third of people take it; they don't notice anything, they're not sure if it's working or helping at all. And then one-third of people report like, oh my gosh, this is awesome, I like it. And so I don't love those odds, and I don't love anything that when I introduce it, it could stop my protocols from working.
So those one-third of people that react to probiotics and fermented foods like sauerkraut, your body should be able to handle that stuff. And if it can't, don't be using it, and I just think we're trying to do things with probiotics like build the diversity, heal the leaky gut, modulate the immune system.
There are some other systemic effects around weight loss or brain, depending on the dose and the strain. But we can do all those things safer with, I think, with enzymes, HCL, butyrate. Once we stabilize somebody, then we bring in the probiotics and the prebiotics.
Now, if someone is like super constipated, and they're needing help beyond like a magnesium oxide or citrate or some sort of osmotic laxative. I do like the guar gum, the sun fiber, the partially hydrolyzed guar gum as one of the safest prebiotics.
But again, if we're dealing with somebody who has like an overgrowth, they might be bloating from almost everything. And so again, prebiotics can be weird. Some people, they seem a little more tolerable than the probiotics.
But again, I just don't love it when I have a protocol, and I give it to somebody, and they're like just immediately bloated. And they don't want to stay with you, and they don't want to complete the program.
[00:46:50.27] Scott: Yes. I mean, I think for the most part, for many years, I was not excited at all about probiotics. I felt like if you were taking antibiotics, they were a good insurance policy to minimize fungal overgrowth. But I never saw them doing anything amazing.
And I also felt like people that were dealing with mast cell activation, for example, a lot of the probiotics are histamine promoters or histamine creators versus histamine degraders. So I got a little more excited, in fact, quite a bit more excited with like the MegaSporeBiotic, for example, the spore-based probiotics rather than Lactobacillus and Bifidus; more the Bacillus spores.
And fortunately, those seem to be pretty well tolerated in mast cell activation in people that are dealing with SIBO. And so I got re-interested in this realm with Kiran Krishnan's work from microbiome labs; I think they have some interesting tools there.
But I like what you said about first putting this framework in place to support optimal gut health and then potentially bringing some of those things in later. So let's dig into your products that you've created; I know from your whole journey, you've got three products that you put together with healthy guts.
So we've got the HCL Guard™, which is the hydrochloric acid product for the stomach. I think it's actually HCL Guard+™. You've got Holozyme™, the enzyme product for the small intestine, and then Tributyrin-X™ or the short-chain fatty acid product for the lower small intestine and the large intestine.
So how did you create them? Why did you create them? And what was the gap that you saw in the market that led you to formulating these products yourself?
[00:48:24.00] Steven W.: Yes. Well, let me just start by like I didn't really want to do this. I mean, I've been a supplement user since I was 13, and I was ordering creatine monohydrate trying to get a bit bigger, so I stopped getting picked on in school.
So I've always been into molecules and getting an advantage, and I really didn't want to start a supplement company, especially not like a re-label company. But I just grew frustrated that there were certain natural things that seemed to fit together that the companies wouldn't create.
And so, for instance, I always thought all HCL products should include intrinsic factors. Which is basically like the bouncer for B12. It basically encapsulates B12, protects it through the stomach so you can absorb it in the small intestine.
So I was like, well, if we know the stomach acid isn't working, why don't we just throw a little intrinsic factor in there because we know B12 is associated with low stomach acid. And so there was these weird things that I felt like the companies should do, and they just never did.
So Healthy Gut’s line of supplements, and just kind of pivoting from just doing articles and eBooks, started with that, sort of that frustration. As people more and more people ask me what to do, how do I do it? I again want to eliminate every possible issue when I give a recommendation.
I think recommendations are sacred, and a lot of people ask me that are in big powerful positions, that you know they don't want to be named when they have a gut issue, and they've tried all the normal things, they call me.
And so I don't want to give someone a recommendation where I know that the product quality matters. And so that's kind of where we got started here was like HCL, like what should be in there? Well, we should probably help with the pro-kinetics, the same thing with enzymes.
Why is it that digestive enzymes seem so hit or miss when it comes to people's bodies and the dosage? And then the same thing with butyrate, there's just an issue with sodium butyrate that I didn't like, and I couldn't get repeatable results. And so each product was an iteration to try to get better repeatable results.
[00:50:26.17] Scott: So let's maybe talk about some general questions and then dig into each one of them. I've got a number of questions that I want to get to on each one of the products because they're definitely unique and interesting. So number, one are the products gluten-free?
[00:50:39.15] Steven W.: They are, yes, third party tested.
[00:50:41.20] Scott: Dairy-free?
[00:50:42.18] Steven W.: Yes.
[00:50:43.20] Scott: And how about vegetarian or vegan?
[00:50:46.01] Steven W.: So no, HCL Guard+™is not vegan or vegetarian, and Tributyrin-X֭™ is not vegan or vegetarian. But the Holozymes™ are.
[00:50:55.07] Scott: Excellent. This next question actually was one that I heard Beth ask you in one of your conversations, probably not one I would have thought to ask, though.
I think it is important given the sensitive population that listens to this podcast. So in people with alpha-gal syndrome, where people react to ingredients that are derived from mammals. Which of your products would still be reasonable for them to explore?
[00:51:19.26] Steven W.: Yes, just the Holozyme™. The other two have animal products extracts or formulated from animals.
[00:51:29.15] Scott: And if someone is dealing with constipation or diarrhea, can the products be used? And if so, which ones might be helpful for diarrhea? And which ones might be helpful for constipation?
[00:51:40.25] Steven W.: Yes. So the answer is yes, again; I like the fundamentals, the basics because they seem to work a lot. And so we've kind of talked about this, but you know the stomach needs to be working.
And so I think whether you have constipation or diarrhea, I've seen a good, the right appropriate betaine hydrochloride supplement. Either fix too fast in motility or speed up too slow of motility. It won't like "fix it all", but it's a big part of the equation.
So I think everybody should check who's struggling with this kind of thing, with an HCL challenge whether you use our product or someone else's product. Like if you don't cross that off your bucket list, I think you're just doing yourself a disservice.
The same thing with enzymes, I've seen high-dose enzymes slow down diarrhea in a big way. In fact, that's what we used to use for loose stools and diarrhea, was an HCL enzyme high dose combo, back before I even knew what butyrate was.
With constipation enzymes, you don't need typically need as much because, in a way, if you think about it, constipation is a form of holding and sort of over harvesting that includes your nutrients. You know, cosmetic people tend to struggle with weight issues like you're harvesting more toxins and nutrients.
And so enzymes do actually seem to help, but you usually need a smaller dose. And then with the butyrate products, it's the same thing. Butyrate is, I've never seen anything both in the literature; there are studies on travelers' diarrhea, which is basically when they don't know what to say about why you're having a lot of diarrhea all day.
Where butyrate like really is beneficial above 50%, I think it's around 60+% of people. And that's without them finding the right dose, right? That's just a standard dose; what if they would have doubled the dose.
And that's what I've seen, is that people who have like lifelong loose stools, they can find a higher dose of butyrate and stop that. With constipation, you have to be a little bit more cautious with the butyrate that seems to be one thing that really struggles.
And I'm formulating a hypothesis around constipation, which to me is just a much more complex issue than diarrhea or loose stool people.
But I think part of the problem is there is a butyrate; in the studies, there is a butyrate, a low butyrate condition with constipation. Butyrate supplementation does seem to help with constipation. But in practice, it seems like you have to go really slow and build up over time.
And then there's some sort of weird tipping point. And I don't know what's changing. But we've had people who were like really dependent on laxatives.
And I was like, okay, one pill every three days, and they slowly build up to like one pill a day and then like two pills a day. And then that like week 10 or 12, they're like oh my gosh, I'm going every day. What's happening there? I don't know. But it's very interesting.
[00:54:31.02] Scott: Excellent, yes, that's a beautiful thing. All right, so let's dig in then to the HCL Guard+™. How is it supporting the body?
And what are some of the symptoms that people report they find it has helped them with? What makes that particular product unique in your line?
[00:54:45.07] Steven W.: Well, the differences between the other HCLs on the market are the inclusion of the intrinsic factor for b12 and energy absorption, and then the inclusion of ginger and DGL. And those were included because their studies of ginger basically starting or increasing the peristaltic waves out of the lower chamber of the stomach.
And so my belief is if you're having low stomach acid issues, you're going to have some peristaltic issues. And so why not help with that. And then oftentimes, we do have mucosal issues, and we do have like H. pylori and other sort of issues in the stomach.
And DGL is one of the longest standing herbs to be used there. And so that just seemed like a natural inclusion for me as well. What people find versus other HCL products on the market is typically, they can take less capsules.
So if you're only taking like two from another brand, maybe our products not for you. But if you're somebody like me who is like doing like seven to ten pills a day for years, we're finding people can take two to three less pills per meal and like get the sort of same results or better.
[00:55:59.00] Scott: And so people then that have, let's say, lots of bloating, for example, do they notice that the bloating reduces once they start using the hydrochloric acid product?
[00:56:08.19] Steven W.: Yes, 100%. I mean, if you think about what would happen in low acid, the bottom of the stomach is sensing the total pH of the stomach. And when it drops down to like a 1.5 to 2 or so, it starts to slowly open up and let food through into the small intestines.
So if it doesn't sense that the acid level is low enough, it doesn't open. And so we have fermentation. Because again, if we let food sit around, nature shows up to eat it. And so that's when we get burping, we get acid reflux, we get a lot of these symptoms.
But if it sits there long enough, eventually, your body will just start releasing it. But now we're dumping like unbroken down food into the small intestine, where once again, we're setting up the conditions for just a ton of bloating.
Which is, again, the farts of bacteria, I mean honestly. And so whenever you're having bloating or gas issues, just remember what that means is microbes inside of you are eating thanksgiving every day. And so whatever we can do to reduce their ability to eat is a big deal.
[00:57:17.10] Scott: And my understanding is that increasing the stomach acid, using the hydrochloric acid for example in the HCL Guard+™, that also then is kind of a firewall that we're protecting ourselves from future invasion from H. pylori or parasites or things like that, that they're not as likely to then take hold in the system, correct?
[00:57:39.07] Steven W.: Yes. So stomach acid neutralizes incoming food, like so whatever might be on it, and it makes it really harsh. Like two on a pH scale is really harsh, and even below two is super harsh.
So the stomach's an amazing organ, and having appropriate low acid or not low, but high acid, low pH conditions helps protect against any of these invasions. It is part of your immune system.
[00:58:06.19] Scott: And with the ginger and DGL, do you find that people that have salicylate intolerance are tolerating this product well?
[00:58:14.12] Steven W.: We haven't had any complaints specifically about that, so I think that's true. There is a portion of the population, and they pretty much know who they are, who just have a ginger issue.
I don't know exactly what that is, but like any amount of ginger has upset them in the past, then our products are not for you. I mean, we do have a 60-day refund, and we do refund all the time if there are any issues.
But yes, if they already have the condition, they've already tried a ginger product in the past, and it did not go well; the same thing is going to happen.
[00:58:48.16] Scott: So let's talk then a little about when the product should be taken, should it be taken with or without food, with or without water, and how do we get to the right dose.
[00:58:59.04] Steven W.: Yes. So doing the same HCL challenge with HCL Guard+™ is what we recommend, and we step people through inside of our private Facebook group. And we have health coaches on staff that can help out if you get really confused.
But basically, you start with one pill with your regular meal, and then if all goes well, then you try two and three and four. And at some point, maybe it's five, you'll have loose stools, or you'll have some sort of heat or burning.
If you have that, you can take some baking soda and water, neutralize it and then your dose is one below that. And that's another thing that if you take nothing else away from this interview, I think there is a chronic, non-individualization of dosing in the gut health and healing world, and it's driving me insane.
You have to find the right dose for your body because even if you use my products or microbiome labs, or any of the pure, I don't care what practitioner brand it is. If you dose it too low or too high for you, you'll write it off.
You'll be like enzymes don't work for me, butyrate doesn't work for me. When the truth is there's a statistical, everybody falls on a bell curve; statistically speaking, 34% of us need more or less than whatever is written on the back of the bottle or whatever your practitioner tells you in your meeting.
And so, work with them to find the right dose, but please don't give up on these interventions just because you can't figure it out in the first week.
[01:00:20.18] Scott: So this one then is one we want to take, like let's say 10 minutes before eating to maybe 45 minutes after, and my understanding is that you also recommend that it should be taken with water, correct?
[01:00:31.14] Steven W.: Yes, I mean, I'm not a huge fan of drinking at meals. So the lowest amount of liquids you can consume at a meal is important. Because you're diluting your stomach acid if you drink a lot of water, pop, tea, wine, I don't care.
So lower amounts. Some people do find like if you're trying to be perfect, some people actually do report that they notice a lot of difference, and they finally have the benefit of HCL when they take it five to ten minutes before a meal.
I am not that sensitive, so I typically take mine at the end of my meal. And if I'm having indigestion, or like the other day, I had a really stressful day.
And I was like, I'm just not going to digest this protein. So I took another one, like 45 minutes to an hour after I was done eating because I just felt everything sitting around. So if you get there, you can play with it.
[01:01:23.00] Scott: Yes, it's interesting your comments about not drinking too much water, because it's always been interesting that people promote the alkaline water and so on.
And it never made sense to me that I would want alkaline water taken with a meal when I'm trying to have the stomach acid to break it down and digest it. It just seemed a little bit, like a little counter-intuitive to me.
Let's talk about using this product in children; what if someone can't swallow a capsule? Can the capsule be opened? How would you dose this in children?
[01:01:53.27] Steven W.: So you can't open the capsules on HCL Guard+™ or any betaine hydrochloride product; you are essentially putting powdered acid then directly on your food or on your tongue. So don't do that at all. If you can't swallow a pill, then this is where bitters come into play.
This is where Iver gas or some of these other powerful stomach acid promoting things could come into play. You can also try strong acids. Nothing is as strong as betaine hydrochloride, but like, for instance, apple cider vinegar with your kids, which I doubt they're going to do.
But if they by chance like that, you could do that. This is why some people drink Coca-Cola if they have an upset stomach.
That's like a southern thing because it's like a two-point. It's slightly more acidic than apple cider vinegar. So yes, for kids, unfortunately, it's a tougher grow there.
[01:02:50.22] Scott: All right. So let's talk then about the Holozyme™, that product I believe was recently reformulated. So let's go back to how is it supporting the body.
What are some of the symptoms that people report have been helped from the Holozyme™ product, and what's unique about this one.
[01:03:04.07] Steven W.: Yes. So enzymes are again so important like I guess I say that about all these products. But you are basically born with a pancreatic reserve, is what they believe. Kind of like you have a number of stem cells throughout your lifetime.
You basically have a number of like; you have a counting down timer of how many enzymes you can make pancreatic-wise. And so if we burn through those due to chronic health issues, or you're just over 50 even older, you're probably not going to have enough enzymes to get the job done no matter what. Even if you don't have a brush border or a microbiome deficiency in enzymes.
And so I look at enzymes as, for me anyway, a lifelong supporter, people typically notice that they're able to tolerate foods they were not able to; it lowers bloating. Like we've had amazing glowing results for people who have gas and bloating issues. This seems to be a big thing.
It also has, I basically licensed this from a PhD who got a patent on this sort of enzyme formula, and we can talk about that in a minute. But there are six pilot trials, which is really rare for supplements, to have an actual human study.
So it does have systemic effects around lowering cholesterol, lowering uric acid and stabilizing blood sugar after meals. So it's really the answer to the question, why can't I recommend something that's going to work 50% or better for humans? I used to recommend Thorne Dipan-9 with Enzymedica Gold.
So I would tell people to take two of each at the same meal, and then you would cover your animal enzymes and your plant enzymes, and that was like the best thing I could come up with. So I was going to make a super version of that.
And I contacted all these companies to like put it all in the same capsule. And they all said it be like $40 a bottle, like just wholesale cost, and like it won't work. And I tried everybody who said they had the best formula, and this guy, of course, told me the same thing.
Like, oh yes, it's all about this activation thing. And then I tried it, and I was like it worked. And so then I did my chip and wine test, which is eat a half bag of tortilla chips, and some wine and take a bunch of enzymes, and like what's your poop like the next day?
And this enzyme blend was the answer, and I was like, okay, we got something here. And that's when I kind of learned about the difference between whole enzymes and apoenzymes and the fact that anything that is vegetarian enzymes is missing its cofactor.
And then I learned about the pH range and how they only work in certain conditions, and then it all kind of makes sense on why his patented activation formula was working better than the other formulas.
[01:05:52.21] Scott: So let's talk then about what are some of the unique ingredients in this formulation. What is the activation system that you're talking about, and why does the addition of certain minerals help to make the product more effective?
[01:06:05.03] Steven W.: Yes. So pancreatic enzymes made in the body or extracted from cows or pork are what are called whole enzymes.
The body makes them bound to a mineral cofactor. And then they just need the right pH window, like seven to nine is the range for a pancreatic enzyme to work. And when it hits that pH window, and it comes in contact with something it's supposed to do something with it, it reacts, and it does its enzymatic process.
Apoenzymes are what happens when we have vegetarian enzymes; they are basically produced usually through mold. It's like molds babies basically, like mold basically digests things around it, and so it has to do that through enzymes.
And they just harvest this, they clean them, but they're missing the cofactor. And so, we have a trademarked active blend, which is a dual vegetarian enzyme blend. That's going to work from 1.7 to 11 in the pH scale.
So that means even if you have low stomach acid, or like you're really banged up, you have Gastroparesis or something. It doesn't matter what the conditions are inside your body; the enzyme will work. And then what he did was he spent, I don't even know how long in the lab, dropping different types of minerals.
And then, their specific bonds in petri dishes measured which ones caused the enzyme to get more excited and do more work. And so the AES patented activation blend is his work of like which magnesium really turns things on.
And so inside of the Holozyme™ capsule, you have the active blend to work anywhere in the body, and then you have its corresponding mineral that excites it the most, all inside one capsule.
So otherwise, if you take a vegetarian-based enzyme from a different company, you're essentially waiting for that mineral to be liberated from the food, and then it connects and then it gets its job done.
[01:08:11.11] Scott: Well, cool, that's amazing. So you mentioned the mold baby's conversation, and so some of the plant-based enzymes are derived from fungus-like Aspergillus, for example.
Lots of people listening, lots of people in my community and best community they're dealing with mold illness that are very sensitive to mold, mold exposure.
Do you find that people that are sensitive to mold or maybe dealing with mold illness are less likely to tolerate enzymes that are produced by Aspergillus, for example?
[01:08:44.14] Steven W.: Not one bit for our product. And our product comes from a pharmaceutical enzyme manufacturer in the states here.
It's triple, or it's quadruply cleaned. But also, I think people are really and don't give me like literally when I first learned about this like four years ago; I was like oh my gosh, there's black mold enzymes. Like holy cow, this is terrible.
But people, I think, have really not taken the time to understand enzymes in general as well as their production process. And so again, enzymes come from the mold as like their response to the stimuli in the environment.
So these companies are putting down a medium, they're putting the mold on there, and then they're stimulating. The mold spores or the mold, I guess that's what you call the mold spore, is actually giving off the enzyme in response to its environment.
And then the companies basically separate those two through a bunch of cleaning processes, and they're not even the same material, there's no residue, there's no nothing, especially American-made stuff for sure. I assume probably other stuff in the world too, but.
[01:09:51.05] Scott: No, and I'm glad you clarified that because that's been something that I've heard people talk about for years. And I've asked that same question of some of my mentors like Dr. Ann Corson, for example, who feel like you do that, that is not, the end result is not Aspergillus.
That there shouldn't be any Aspergillus remaining there. And that most people, even with mold illness, should tolerate those enzymes that are produced by Aspergillus without a problem. That doesn't mean everybody will, but for the most part, it seems like that's more of a myth than a reality.
One of the recent changes that you made to the product was the addition of Xylanase, which I came to know through exploration around phenolic sensitivity, people that were reactive to phenols.
Interested in why you added the Xylanase, and are you finding that's helping people to avoid food reactions, to help them with phenolic sensitivity, maybe even salicylate sensitivity. And are they then able to increase their food choices more when they're incorporating the whole enzyme?
[01:10:54.20] Steven W.: Yes. The answer is it appears yes, and it does appear kind of personal. So it's not a panacea, I don't believe.
But yes, there is a group of us who have salicylate intolerance. And all the studies on low salicylate diets have actually been really sad and not produced much results. I am not a huge fan of any type of elimination diet for longer than 8 to 12 weeks without beginning to reintroduce because it does cause Dysbiosis of that, whatever that downstream effect is.
And as we know, polyphenols are like super healthy if you can tolerate them. And so Xylanase comes from the commercial juice and industry basically, they use it to separate the pulp and the juice and create more juice.
And so the theory here is that essentially what Xylanase is doing, and Xylanase is a microbiome enzyme. It's not something like your bugs, and your gut should make it. So if we think about the people, who typically have a salycilate or phenol issue, they typically have like a really dysbiotic gut probably from birth, who knows, but they're really struggling.
And so, they might have lost the class of bacteria in their microbiome that would produce the Xylanase family to help separate the bonds on polyphenols faster. And so that's the theory, is that the Xylanase is going to be basically separating the bonds and the polyphenols faster, higher up in the GI tract.
And allowing the absorption, and sort of like eliminating whatever molecule structure that seems to be causing the reaction. And again, this is pretty new stuff. There's no real study proving this yet, but the feedback has been good.
[01:12:40.08] Scott: Then we talk about, let's say, protease for protein and lipase for fats. In some circles, we talk about amylase, and generally that the amylase content would be lower because we generally have too many carbs in our diet already.
And so I'm wondering, what is the value of amylase in an enzyme formula? And if we look at the amylase and Holozyme™, for example, is that lower than the protease and lipase?
[01:13:08.03] Steven W.: The answer is no, it's actually pretty high in our formula. And the reason why is I'm not just making this formula for any one individual like not everybody has a phenolic issue, and they don't necessarily need the Xylanase.
So our amylase is pretty high. But why it's not lower is because I think the number one issue in our food for people who are digestively challenged is carbohydrate, breaking down carbohydrates and absorbing them. Like I don't care if we look at a fodmap, or we look at a gaps or a specific carbohydrate diet. Like in general, they're in the carbohydrate group.
And so the amylase is if you want to digest any of your starches, or if you really want to break down your vegetables, especially if you're eating a lot of raw stuff, you're going to need amylase. And so I guess I don't subscribe to the idea that we need less, even if we're consuming a like a 50 gram like low carbohydrate style diet.
[01:14:09.23] Scott: Excellent. I know kelp is one of the ingredients in this formulation; should we be aware or concerned at all about potentially over-stimulating the thyroid in certain people?
[01:14:20.05] Steven W.: I mean, clearly, that's the case for some people. We just reformulated to add a bunch of humic and fulvic acids in to take the place of the kelp. Because the Kelp provides a, it's like a multivitamin; it has so many cool trace minerals in it.
And so we reduced the kelp down, so now a two-serving, two capsules of Holozyme™, which is the serving size, now contains 15 micrograms, and that's really low honestly if you were like going to take an iodine supplement, most of them are dosed at 300 micrograms.
So I guess if you're losing using this like at the extreme levels, you could get to 300, but you'd have to be taking 20 plus capsules a day. And so I don't think that's true, and of course, follow your body and if you're someone who's like super iodine sensitive, then you know maybe that's not the product for you.
[01:15:15.11] Scott: So let's talk Holozyme™ dosing. Should it be taken with or without food? What's the range of dosing that you generally see?
[01:15:22.14] Steven W.: Yes. The basic range is two capsules with food and then two capsules before bed for the systemic benefits.
But for people who are pretty banged up or having like a ton of food sensitivities, a ton of gas and bloating, we really encourage you to find your ideal dose. So try three capsules, then four, then five, then six things like that.
I think, for the most part, I don't know of too many people who are consuming more than six. And if you're going to take it systemically, we do have some people that use it for like herniated discs and other pain issues. And they'll often take six before bed and then six in the morning before food for the systemic benefits.
[01:16:05.00] Scott: And what about children with this one? If they can't swallow a capsule, can we open this one? How would we dose it in kids?
[01:16:10.28] Steven W.: Yes. You can open this one; you can sprinkle it in your food. You can put it wherever you'd like. You know, in general, most things are dosed by a weight. And so if you think wherever your kid is, if two capsules is what we give to a hundred-pound adult or even teenager, you would just dose that down based on weight. So 25 pounds would probably be a quarter of that etc.
But the cool thing about enzymes is like they have a really high safety profile. Unless you have exposed gut tissue due to like atrophic gastritis or a sensitive ulcer, enzymes are used systemically. When I say systemic, I mean without food, so no food in the system, digestive I mean with food.
So systemic enzyme therapy is used in certain cancer circles at like 160 capsules a day. And so we're talking about way less than that, and even in a child, that would be significantly less.
So, in general, there's no feedback loop that turns off enzyme production that anyone's aware of at this point in time, and the safety profile of enzymes, in general, is extremely high.
[01:17:19.04] Scott: So now we're going to talk about Tributyrin-X™; this is the one that I was initially the most excited to talk about until I learned about the other products as well and then found they're all very interesting.
So I was for a while now taking a calcium magnesium butyrate, but personally, I'm not a fan of taking calcium every day long term. And so your product really piqued my interest, in that it's not a mineral salt type product.
And so let's talk about how Tributyrin-X™ is different from, let's say, calcium magnesium butyrate, or sodium butyrate, or sodium-potassium butyrate, that are products that many other people are using.
And then how is it also different from maybe some of the other liquid butyrate products on the market like sun butyrate?
[01:18:02.20] Steven W.: It's different in many forms. So let's start with the different types of butyrate, and then we can work towards what makes Tributyrin-X™; well, I think better but different than other products out there. I'm biased, of course.
So sodium butyrates, as you mentioned, are butyrates bonded to a salt or a mineral and calcium or magnesium. And these are cheaper substances to make, they're more stable, and therefore they've been studied longer or studied more; I don't know that longer is actually the right term because of that.
So, unfortunately, you end up with like one-third of your butyrate dosage or your weight dosage in that mineral, whatever it's bonded to. And so there are studies, there's not that many that come that look at those sodium butyrate versus Tributyrin.
And Tributyrin is a molecule that's glycerol and fatback. So there are three butyric acid molecules tied to a glycerol or a fat backbone. And so it's less stable quite honestly, it's harder to work with, and it smells like deep vomit, like terrible, you don't want to smell it.
And so it has a lot of drawbacks; it's harder to make, it's harder to work with. But its safety profile appears really good. In fact, there was a time when they thought that they could give high doses of tributaries to cancer patients and try to help them.
And they got up above 42,000 milligrams a day orally for these cancer patients. And they found they had GI upset at that point and some other issues. But like that type of safety, research has never been done with the bonded salts, and so that makes me a little cautious with them.
The other thing is that pharmacokinetically speaking, any sort of salt or mineral bonded molecule is really fastly absorbed in the upper gastrointestinal tract. So in the upper small intestine. To absorb Tributyrin, you actually have to use lipase to break it down.
So in and of itself, Tributyrin is a better molecule if we're trying to get it deeper into the small intestine and maybe even into the upper large intestine. It's basically like its own delayed-release molecule versus the bonded salts.
And so that makes it pharmacokinetically better typically in studies, they have even done one study where they did oral Tributyrin versus IV sodium butyrate. And the oral Tributyrin at a smaller dose raised plasma levels better.
And so, like if you think about that, that's pretty outstanding and pretty cool. And so, while the majority of human research has been done with sodium butyrate. I think by and far, the Tributyrin molecule is appears safer. There are studies showing that it even might be more powerful in pork lung tissue than sodium butyrate as far as an anti-inflammatory effect.
And so that's kind of the differences between the two. But as I mentioned, Tributyrin is a volatile molecule, it's smelly, and so you have to protect it from stomach acid. I mean, you have to do that with sodium butyrate as well.
But Tributyrin is even harder to work with. And so what has been the, like one of the big breakthroughs for our company was finding a capsule that's a patent-pending capsule. That is gastro-resistant, not, or sorry, it's an enteric capsule.
The rest of the capsules on the market are gastro-resistant. That's the difference between having an iPhone 6 and having an iPhone 10. One is waterproof, and one is water-resistant. And so the other capsules on the market can't actually claim that they make it through the stomach as well.
Basically, they begin to break down faster. And so other products like pure encapsulation sun butyrate, what they did to solve this problem. Was they built the liposome delivery capsule? And so they protect it from the stomach acid using a bunch of liposomes, which are like these protected, cool fat molecules.
And what we did was I found a PhD researcher in Spain, and he found this capsule, and so he's been working with Tributyrin for 30 years. And so this is kind of his little master's thesis, if you will, of Tributyrin. And so that's I guess what makes the product different, and makes them different.
[01:22:29.19] Scott: So many of the butyrate products that I have opened in the past had that, as you referred to it, vomit smell. In fact, I remember one, in particular, that would come with a cherry capsule inside to try to mask the smell of the butyrate.
And your product, my experience because I do take this, is it doesn't have any smell as long as you leave it in the capsule. But if you were to take the substance out of the capsule, then it might not be so appealing, right?
[01:22:52.27] Steven W.: Yes. Don't open the capsule for your kid or for yourself; please don't do that. Yes, so what that speaks to is again the permeability of the capsule, right? So gastro-resistant means that it has more porousness, right?
So the acid gets through faster, well also the smell gets out faster. We don't have anything in ours except for an oxygen absorber.
And like you said, some people who I guess are sensitive to everything, they might smell something, but in general, it really does not smell. And that's reflective of the capsule, the PXRcap™.
[01:23:31.01] Scott: So we talked a little bit about butyrate earlier, some of the great things that it does for the body.
But specifically to Tributyrin-X™, what are some of the ways that it's supporting the body, some of the feedback that you're getting from people in terms of symptoms that it's helping with? And anything else that we didn't cover that makes it unique.
[01:23:47.28] Steven W.: Yes. I mean, I guess we covered that; I think that it's hard to find a product that's universal for leaky gut like there's a lot of powders and potions and like you have to create these big leaky gut packages.
Well, if we go back to like defensive molecules, microbiome diversity, mucous layers and then tight junction function. Well, Tributyrin-X™ does all those things, and butyrate, in general, does all those things.
So as far as a leaky gut product, I think butyrates are superior because they actually are addressing all four layers at the same time. Beyond that, there's some really cool research showing that butyrate and Tributyrin can be helpful for osteoporosis.
It actually like helps stimulate T-regulatory cells and then parathyroid hormone, to help with bone formation. It appears it is being studied right now in neurological disorders; who knows what will happen there?
But obviously, there's a big connection between your microbiome and your brain. And potentially shuttling those butyrate molecules, maybe up the vagus nerve. So, in general, I think what we've been hearing is number one, I sleep better.
Number two, I can tolerate way more foods. And that includes the group of the histamine people that we've talked about.
Number three, the loose stool results are just out of this world. Like, I've never seen something so universally work if you are willing to just find your dose. And that might be two pills a day or six pills a day.
[01:25:29.08] Scott: Yes. So let's jump into that then. So dosing on this one, this is one where if you're constipated versus having diarrhea, that might affect how you start and where you target in terms of dosing. So give us kind of that guideline for dosing of Tributyrin-X™.
[01:25:43.06] Steven W.: Yes. And this is probably for every butyrate supplement. So again, while I have an angle here, and I'm really proud of what we've built and what we've brought to market. If you have something at home and you're not getting results, work on this dosing.
And I think what I've laid out for each product will work for the product you have at home in general. So for constipated people, one serving every three days, to begin with. And then after a week or two, you go to one serving every two days, and then one serving a day.
And then kind of that's, the general recommended dose is three pills a day. You may not get there as a constipated person, I only take two per day, and I tend towards constipation, especially if you're a really sensitive person or super histamine person, like the same guidelines.
Go slow, and just ease your way into it. If you're a hardier individual and you're struggling with loose stools, you can speed that up faster. You could do one pill a day, and then every three days, you increase the dose.
We have had people who, like again, this is not indicative of your results, and it could vary. But we've had people who have never had a form bowel movement in their entire lives. Get up to taking like four or five three times a day, and have their first form bowel movements in their entire lives.
So the safety profile again, 42,000 milligrams, would be about the whole bottle in one gulp, so it's pretty good. And you will know because you'll stop increasing your dosage because your motility will regulate, and then you'll get actually a little slow.
And you'll actually feel it. You'll feel just a little heavier, a little tighter, and so one pill less than that is your ideal dose.
[01:27:27.10] Scott: So what can we do in children with this one? What would the dose be in a child? And if they can't swallow the soft gel, is there any way for them to benefit from this product?
[01:27:36.18] Steven W.: If they can't swallow a soft gel, use the SunButyrate from Pure; I mean, that's really the answer here. I think that's the second-best product on the market.
Be wary of any powdered Tributyrin products; typically, they are only thirty percent standardized to Tributyrin and 70% carrier oils. And so I would rather see people use sodium butyrate than the powdered Tributyrin options out there.
[01:28:06.09] Scott: And if they can swallow a soft gel for a child, would this be like one a day or what are you targeting kids?
[01:28:13.10] Steven W.: Yes. Normally start one every few days, just kind of again, same sort of dosing profile.
[01:28:19.25] Scott: So if someone incorporates these products, they hopefully see some benefits. Are they tools that people need to take forever?
Or are they eventually leading to less of a need or no need at all for the product long term? So are they more symptom management? Or are they more corrective?
[01:28:39.09] Steven W.: Yes, they're both, in my opinion. I mean, I think maybe you can speak to this. But my experience is like if you're really messed up, there's a lot of root causes you have to unwind. And you have to get through that mold issue, or that Lyme issue or that parasite issue or all of those things.
Plus a hormone issue and whatnot. And so, during that time frame, typically, these products are taken, and they're taken at higher dosages.
And then as you systemically heal, like let's say you increase your thyroid and you get your sex hormones dialed in, even if you have to use replacement ones. You're going to make better stomach acid; you're going to probably set up the conditions for a better microbiome and more butyrate production.
And so, like for instance, with HCL Guard™, Dr. Jonathan Wright talks about this in his book. But over time, people tend to as they replenish their minerals and as they able to retrain their stomach how acidic it should be.
And if they get rid of any root causes around parasympathetic tone or H. pylori, they will just start needing less and less and less and then go off. And this actually happened to me, so I am a testament for that, then.
Of course, I ran into a massive series of stressors three years ago, and I'm back on it. But it can happen if you do get well. With enzymes, again, typically, the more sick you are, the more you need. That might be more of a long-term thing, potentially the rest of your life. I actually look at it as an antiaging tool at this point.
Especially the systemic blood flow, anti-aging, blood cleaning effects of enzymes. And then with butyrate, people often ask me this, like am I going to have to take this the rest of my life? And my answer is no.
Typically, what should happen is you should be able to eat food, break that food down, your microbiome breaks that food down, you make your own butyrate.
And so when you get to the point where you can tolerate a lot of vegetables, you can tolerate starches, and your microbiome is healthy and able to make its own butyrate through prebiotics and vegetable matter, then maybe you don't take it.
But I think this is the issue, right? Like if you're trying to use probiotics and probiotics to make the microbiome better and make the butyrate, it just can't because the oxygen's wrong and all the other issues around there are wrong.
So if you insert like a stopgap, right? With Tributyrin-X™ for a little while. I think the goal for me and for I think everybody out there is to like wean off that onto prebiotics, probiotics and vegetable fibers.
[01:31:07.25] Scott: Are there any known contraindications for any of your products who should not consider using them?
[01:31:14.27] Steven W.: So with any HCL product, contraindications are active ulcers, active like atrophic gastritis or any sort of like mucus breakdown in the stomach. Also, cortical steroid use, conjunctive with that not indicated, do not do that.
That's because they break down the mucous lining if you take your steroids long-term, and then you would have an issue with the acid.
Enzymes, again, not know that I'm aware of, but if you take our product or any product, stop if it hurts, just stops. Like we're happy to give your money back, we know what it's like to be struggling and spend thousands of dollars a month on supplements, and like think you got one.
Butyrate, same thing; if you have a reaction to it, typically, we ask you to lower your dose and slow it out because some people do have a microbiome remodeling effect. Like it can actually cause a bit of a herxheimer die-off.
But if you're not comfortable trying to figure that out, then stop whatever butyrate supplement you're taking.
[01:32:21.05] Scott: And with corticosteroids, for example, I'm assuming we're talking about higher dosages, not so much the physiologic dosages that someone might be using to, let's say, support their adrenals with something like Cortef, for example, right?
[01:32:34.10] Steven W.: Yes, correct. I was thinking more like prednisone in a IBD situation or RA situation.
[01:32:40.19] Scott: Beautiful. Yes, one of the things about your company that really caught my attention, and it's super rare, is that you actually guarantee your supplements. I think you have a 60-day guarantee which is super unheard of in the supplement world.
So not only do you have the guarantee for people to try these, but you're also offering $15 off an order and free U.S. shipping.
So tell us a little bit about why you decided to offer the guarantee, and then in terms of the returns, how common is it that someone does return the product?
[01:33:10.11] Steven W.: Yes, great questions. I'm literally just trying to build what I want. Like what do I want for the rest of my life? What products do I want to take for the rest of my life? What do I want for my family?
And what would I have wanted back when I was buying anything and everything that a practitioner told me to, and then more stuff off Amazon and everywhere else. And so one thing is I got really mad before I was a practitioner, and had access to practitioner grade products, that I could hear on podcasts that like oh, this great new product is the way to go.
But wait a second, I can't get access because it's not sold directly to the public. So I didn't want to be that company; I wanted to make the best thing and trust the public to be able to handle the practitioner-grade supplements that are stronger and more effective.
And with that, I think we had to offer a guarantee, a refund. Like number one, I want to prove to you that it works. And if it doesn't work, I would never want to be the person or the company that stops or slows your progression and healing.
And so I want you to take that money and go spend it on a different butyrate or a different practitioner or a different supplement, whatever is your next thing. We just ask that you pay shipping and handling back to us; that's it.
And the refund rates are a little higher with HCL Guard+™ because it's a tougher supplement, and not everybody has low stomach acids. So I think we're sitting around six and a half percent on that product, people refunding.
We're at four percent on Holozymes™ and three percent on Tributyrin-X™. So it's a pretty small portion, and I think part of that too is the other thing that I mentioned earlier, and I just want to double click on it. Is that statistically speaking, and it is worse, right? It's a self-selecting population.
If you're sensitive, you're more likely to be in this statistical population of a long tail needing less or more of a certain compound. And so it drives me up the wall that practitioners are not talking about this and not taking the time to work with their clients to adjust the dosage of these really good products for them.
And so part of that is having the health coaches on staff, having the Facebook group to walk people through finding their ideal dosage. And if we literally have tried that with you, and you're willing to play ball, why wouldn't I give your money back? It's clearly not for you.
[01:35:27.18] Scott: Yes, that's amazing. Particularly with this more sensitive population, people dealing with chronic Lyme disease and mold illness and SIBO and mast cell and whatnot. That you only get at most six percent of the product returned. I mean, I think that's pretty phenomenal.
My last question is the same for every guest, and that is what are some of the key things that you do on a daily basis in support of your own health?
[01:35:51.11] Steven W.: Yes. I mean, I try to work really hard on my sleep, and I'm pretty terrible. Like, I don't know if you've spoken about this before. But the business of health typically destroys your health, and I've been as guilty as anyone in that.
Trying to make a company and trying to keep a company going and have a team and things like that. And so if I don't try to get to bed before 10. If I don't use like a cooling pad and like really chill out, I tend to not sleep very well.
I have to meditate every day; I can't even believe I'm sitting down to, I now love meditating, and it's really core to me feeling good and being able to handle the world. So exercise, meditation, sleep, obviously I take my supplements every day.
But I take a handful of other supplements as well, just depending on, I love pills and potions and books, as you can see. So whatever the newest thing is, I'm buying it, trying it.
[01:36:54.04] Scott: Awesome, amazing. This has been such a great and satiating conversation. I'm super excited about the products; I mentioned that I'm already using the Tributyrin-X™.
I'm excited for people to hear our conversation, to understand the potential of these tools, and really interested in getting feedback from people that are starting to explore them as well.
So thank you so much for spending time with us today, really appreciate it and appreciate all that you're doing to help minimize the suffering of others.
[01:37:21.02] Steven W.: Yes, thank you, Scott, you too.
[01:37:23.16] To learn more about today's guest, visit Betterhealthguy.link, that's l-i-n-k-forward-slash HCL Guard Plus. That's HCL Guard Plus.
Or Betterhealthguy.link/Holozyme h-o-l-o-z-y-m-e.
Or Betterhealthguy.link/TributyrinX. That's T r i b u t y r i n x Tributyrin X.
[01:37:56.05] Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a positive rating or review, as doing so will help the show reach a broader audience. To follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or MeWe, you can find me there as BetterHealthGuy.
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