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In this episode, you will learn about clinical observations in Long COVID.
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About My Guest
My guest for this episode is Dr. Marie Matheson. Marie Matheson, ND is the Co-Founder of BioHeal Ottawa, community builder, creator, and facilitator of LymeBright Collective, and maintains a busy private practice as a Naturopathic Doctor. Dr. Marie’s ultimate goal is to unlock patients who are trapped in their medical condition. Grounded in general practice skills, Dr. Marie is somewhat of a health detective, specifically when it comes to figuring out the causal chain of illness including that of underlying infections and toxins. She is immensely passionate about working with patients to help them better understand their health journey, the misleading nature of most medical labels they’re handed, and how to live an empowered and superior quality of life. Using her assessment tool of Auricular Medicine, Dr. Marie uncovers blockages and underlying imbalances that have created symptoms, to allow the body to self-heal and auto-regulate. Her willingness to freely share clinical pearls of wisdom among colleagues has led to her being a sought-after speaker at medical conferences. Dr. Marie is a featured author of a chapter within Connie Strasheim’s groundbreaking book New Paradigms in Lyme Disease Treatment. She is a Member of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) and completed their Physicians Training Program with the late Dr. Charles Ray Jones, MD.
- What are the parallels between chronic COVID and chronic Lyme disease?
- How common is long COVID?
- What are the symptoms of long COVID?
- What organ systems are most impacted?
- What latent infections have been found to become activated after COVID infection?
- What prevention strategies can help to minimize the potential for long COVID?
- Should COVID be treated acutely even if the case is mild?
- What is the role of immune modulation in long COVID?
- How is the autonomic nervous system supported in those that develop POTS?
- What role does mold exposure and environmental toxicity play in long COVID?
- How significant is hypercoagulation?
- Is mitochondrial support needed to move past long COVID?
- What are some tools for addressing loss of taste, loss of smell, and hair loss?
- What role does limbic system impairment play in long COVID?
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September 29, 2022
Transcript Disclaimer: Transcripts are intended to provide optimized access to information contained in the podcast. They are not a full replacement for the discussion. Timestamps are provided to facilitate finding portions of the conversation. Errors and omissions may be present as the transcript is not created by someone familiar with the topics being discussed. Please Contact Me with any corrections.
[00:00:01] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts, empowering your better health. And now, here's Scott, your Better Health Guy.
[00:00:14] ANNOUNCER: The content of this show is for informational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose, treat or cure any illness or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or as information to facilitate self-treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health related decisions with your own personal medical authority.
[00:00:35] SCOTT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode number 172 of the BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts series. Today's guest is Dr. Marie Matheson, and the topic of the show is Clinical Observations in Long COVID.
Dr. Marie Matheson is the cofounder of BioHeal Ottawa, community builder, creator, and facilitator of LymeBright Collective, and maintains a busy private practice as a naturopathic doctor. Dr. Marie’s ultimate goal is to unlock patients who are trapped in their medical condition. Grounded in general practice skills, Dr. Marie is somewhat of a health detective, specifically when it comes to figuring out the causal chain of illness, including that of underlying infections and toxins.
She is immensely passionate about working with patients to help them better understand their health journey, the misleading nature of most medical labels they're handed, and how to live an empowered and superior quality of life.
Using her assessment tool of auricular medicine, Dr. Marie uncovers blockages and underlying imbalances that have created symptoms to allow the body to self-heal and auto regulate. Her willingness to freely share clinical pearls of wisdom among colleagues has led to her being a sought-after speaker at medical conferences. She is a featured author of a chapter within Connie Strasheim’s groundbreaking book New Paradigms in Lyme Disease Treatment. She is a member of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society and completed their physicians training program with the late Dr. Charles Ray Jones.
And now, my interview with Dr. Marie Matheson.
[00:02:14] SCOTT: I am so honored today to have Dr. Marie Matheson on the podcast I've known Dr. Marie for, gosh, at least a decade. And she is one of the people that I have the utmost respect for. I originally met her through the Lyme and chronic illness conversation, some of our mutual interest in frequency and devices and so on. And she has worked the past couple of years with hundreds of people with COVID and long COVID, where there are parallels to chronic Lyme disease, which I find very interesting. So, thanks for being here. Dr. Marie.
[00:02:46] DR. MARIE: Oh, thanks for having me, Scott.
[00:02:48] SCOTT: What was the personal path or journey that led you to doing the work you do today? Did you have your own personal health challenge or struggle that was the catalyst for doing the work that you're doing now?
[00:03:01] DR. MARIE: Yeah. So, it's a really great segue because it all started with my beautiful niece, Mia, long ago, where she got bitten by a tick. And none of us knew anything about that. That sent me to an ILADS meeting. And the rest is history. Then I traveled the world and went to every single conference I possibly could. I probably met you in those early days. And she's doing great now. So, I'm happy to report that.
[00:03:32] SCOTT: Beautiful, beautiful. Prior to COVID, you had to focus on chronic Lyme disease, and mold illness, and complex chronic illnesses. What are some of the parallels between chronic Lyme disease and long COVID or chronic COVID? Do you think that the focus on COVID will lead us to maybe having some new tools and new treatment options for those that have really struggled for so many years with chronic Lyme disease and were largely left to kind of fend for themselves without real adequate treatment options essentially being invalidated by the conventional medical community with terms like Post Treatment Lyme Disease Syndrome?
[00:04:09] DR. MARIE: Yeah, exactly. I think that having treated Lyme disease, and doctors who treat Lyme disease, are the best equipped for treating these patients with chronic COVID, I'd like to say. I like to say chronic COVID, because I feel like it plays – otherwise, we play into the same idealistic mantra that the IDSA talks about, which is post-Lyme syndrome.
And so, if we call it post-COVID, or we call it long-haul COVID, or long COVID, it just makes it seem like there is no longer an infection. And in fact, in many of the cases, we'll find that there are indeed still viral persistence happening just much like in chronic Lyme. Just like the greatest parallel is that they're both infections. One's a virus, the other one's a bacteria.
Of course, when we talk about the umbrella term Lyme, we are talking about coinfections, which sometimes can include viruses. But the point is they're both infection. They both typically have a host that has a dysregulated immune system. They both have oftentimes a host that has comorbidities. They both open doors for other infections. So, if the host already has Epstein Barr Virus, CMV, Coxsackie virus, etc., etc., then those infections will come out to play, if you will.
So, it's really this analogy of the unhealthy hosts is met by a virus. If the host is healthy, maybe the virus won't have attrition. Maybe the virus will actually behave, which is why we see households where mom is not sick, dad is extremely sick, the younger sister is sick, but the other two don't even get COVID or they test negative for it. So, this really has to do with this chain. And both of them I should say should be treated acutely.
I might be jumping ahead here. But I really think this is a really important piece. And if the listener, the viewer, can only hold on to this part, miss everything else I say, this is the important part. And what I'd like to put across is that much like a fresh tick bite, an acute infection, it needs to be treated early on aggressively right away. And much like with SARS-CoV2, the active infection, the viral infection, it also needs to be treated aggressively earlier on right away.
So, where naturopathic doctors shine is in the realm of viruses, right? So, you get flushing disease, please don't come to my office, please go to emerge. But you get a virus, your doctor, your MD, your conventional medicine doctor, will say to you go home and rest, right? Whereas a naturopathic doctor will put you on lomatium and andrographis. We've got herbs for that. We've got hydrotherapy. We have so many tools in our box that we use to treat acute COVID.
[00:07:10] SCOTT: It really sounds to me like not only your naturopathic background, but your years of treating chronic Lyme disease that that was kind of a training ground essentially that set the stage for you to be able to really help people now that are dealing with chronic COVID.
[00:07:26] DR. MARIE: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I would urge the viewer who's suffering right now, if you really want a doctor who's going to help you, find a doctor who treats Lyme disease.
[00:07:38] SCOTT: And even a naturopath, I would say, because they're often the ones that are – even the best of treating Lyme disease. But I totally agree with you. In fact, many people have reached out to me through my website over the past couple of years, and that's the exact advice that I've given them, is find someone that treats Lyme. And ideally, a very holistic naturopathic approach. And I think that that oftentimes is the way to go.
How many people would you say at this point you've treated that are dealing with chronic COVID or COVID associated conditions?
[00:08:07] DR. MARIE: Oh, thousands.
[00:08:08] SCOTT: Wow! You have been a busy lady.
[00:08:12] DR. MARIE: I’m busy. The great thing about the pandemic and these infections that could possibly be contagious is I do a lot of virtual. So, it's been nice. So, I can work a little longer hours. That's not too hard on my body. And I can have more impact and treat more people, which is always so rewarding.
[00:08:31] SCOTT: So, in those that are dealing with chronic COVID, how are you kind of honing in on the unique contributors in each case? Are you using specific labs? Are you looking for immune reactivity to SARS-CoV2, or cytokine, or interleukin profiles? Are you using energetic testing? How are you kind of individualizing, the treatment approach to that patient in front of you?
[00:08:55] DR. MARIE: Yeah, that's a really good question. The labs at my disposal within my scope of practice here in Canada have been very limited in terms of testing for SARS-CoV2. So, I’ve used conventional labs. I’ll use a standard CBC to check for neutrophils, lymphocytes, etc. I will use RBC, magnesium, and zinc to check mineral status. I might do a mold test if I'm suspicious of an underlying mold issue. I might check for coinfections or Lyme with one of the labs to check for those infections. Even strep, antibodies, I may check for.
But really what I do use is a form of energetic medicine called auricular medicine. It's something I was trained over 18 years ago. And it's using filters to find the blockages in the body that are preventing us from healing. It's really my guideposts. So, I always say, all of us, we're pretty much 70% accurate with our brains, with our medical brains. We're pretty good. We're not perfect. But what energetic medicine does, whether it's muscle testing or regular, in my case, is that it increases that chance of getting it right.
I can fine tune dosages. I can figure out whether this formula is better than another one. I can hit eight birds with one stone. One supplement may actually help eight things. So, it really helps to not over-medicate a patient. And it really helps to kind of a double check for the practitioner. So, I couldn't see my practice without it actually.
[00:10:34] SCOTT: Yeah, what would we do without those energy eyes, right? And that ability to perceive something that oftentimes people aren't using tools to look at that energetic aspect of the body, and the nervous system, and so on? And it's very powerful. How long after someone has acute COVID would you then kind of classify them as having chronic COVID? And what percentage of people with acute COVID do you feel develop chronic COVID?
[00:11:04] DR. MARIE: Yeah. The percentage right now, globally, there's an agreement that it's around 30%, Where there's disagreement with the CDC, or the World Health Organization, or other organizations is the definition. Nobody can actually define it yet. So, the CDC, I believe, says anywhere from four weeks to 10 weeks. But WHO says it has to be three months and beyond.
I would say, definitely the four-week mark, I would start to say. That's a little bit long to be that sick, especially if you're starting to present with other neurological conditions, or the condition, the symptoms that you presented with at the beginning have been unchanged or actually have gotten worse.
[00:11:48] SCOTT: Let's talk about some of those symptoms that you're seeing in chronic COVID patients. Is a spectrum from minimal lagging symptoms to essentially full disability in some people? How devastating can this condition be for some patients?
[00:12:03] DR. MARIE: Yeah, you got it, all of the above. So, I would say the predominant symptom that I see are the top three, are complete exhaustion. And I mean, not just exhaustion. We're talking post-exertional exhaustion, right? So, if they do anything, they walk across the room, and that could put them out for hours. So, it's this really deep-seated exhaustion that is not actually new to us in terms of treating post viral syndrome for us doctors in this realm.
We see a lot of these patients with this debilitating headache. It's this pressure that they'll describe on the top of the head or in the front of the head. It's like a vise. We'll see a lot of memory, severe brain fog, a lot of anxiety and depression, lots of coughs and dyspnea, lots of chest pain still, joint pains in some, loss of smell, loss of taste, GI symptoms. Sounding a little bit like Lime a little bit? But that's the thing, is that what is actually a viral issue? And what's an underlying issue? And that's where the seeing a practitioner working in the realm of chronic complex illness is really going to bring to light and help these patients through.
[00:13:23] SCOTT: How have you, in your work of patients, been able to observe any patterns about the organ systems that are most impacted? Is supporting those organs part of your recovery strategy? And are you finding specific ways or needs for supporting the lungs and the sinuses?
[00:13:40] DR. MARIE: Yeah, good question. So, obviously, the heart the lung, the brain, I think, I would say is in 30% of cases, all of those the above are an issue. I would say the spleen, the kidneys, the liver, also an issue. In terms of supporting the lungs, I think that's a really important piece. Again, that's where naturopathic medicine shine. I love to use herbs for this. So, I'll use a cough syrup that I have in the office that has a lot of mullein, plantain, marshmallow root. I will use sometimes something that is a little bit deeper in the lungs called deep breath, and it's got a little bit more ephedra in it. Lobelia in it as well.
When it comes to the sinuses, I may actually use NAC as well for the lungs. I may use Andrographis. I may use black cumin oil as well. I sometimes do onion poultice. It sounds crazy. And so, simple, but I'll fry up – I'll get patients to fry up a bioflavonoid onion. So, like a yellow onion. And then apply that compress on the chest. And that really helps to break up the mucus. They can lie in the bath and do it. Super easy. Inexpensive.
I will also use a lot of hydrotherapy. So, cold sock treatment, where you hop in a hot bath, you bring wool socks with you, your pajamas in the bathroom, and then you put cold socks or socks under the ice-cold tap or in a bath of water of ice. And then you'll wring them out and put them on your feet, and then put your socks, go to bed. It increases your white blood cells. It decreases your cough. Decreases a headache congestion. You'll wake up with dry socks and feel quite a lot better. And when patients are willing to do it, it really works.
And then for the sinuses, I'll always use nasal sprays. So, I might use silver type of nasal spray. I might use something that has grapefruit seed extract in it with a bit of EDTA. I might use something that has propolis in it. It really depends. I really try to rotate. Xylitol even. But you really need to absolutely address the sinuses. Because like in mold illness, you inhale this. You breathe in COVID. So, that's how you get it. So, you really need to address the sinuses in all cases, and especially in the acute cases.
But I think that people also have to be mindful, and practitioners have to be mindful, of increasing the dosage during the acute stage. So, I'm oftentimes dosing people six times a day. Not just two or three times. Sometimes they're taking the right medicine. They're just maybe not taking enough. I urge the viewer, if you're a patient, to seek a doctor to help you with this and not just do it on your own. But oftentimes, we have to do the dosages a little bit higher.
[00:16:31] SCOTT: I'm very confident, 172 shows into the podcast, that's the first time we've talked about cold sock therapy. So that's a nice new little tip there. So, are people that are developing chronic COVID people that were previously healthy? Or was COVID essentially the straw that broke the camel's back? And what are some of the prerequisites for developing chronic COVID in your patient population?
[00:16:58] DR. MARIE: God, you always ask good questions. This is such a good one. Because COVID is not random. Getting chronic COVID is not random. It's not spontaneous. People were not healthy, okay? So, even if they weren't obese. We know the risk factors are women. We know another risk factor is obesity, comorbidities, lung issues, diabetes, antibodies, lower socioeconomic status.
But what about people who had colitis prior to getting COVID? What if a woman had 15 yeast infections in her lifetime and never really addressed them? What if they ate improperly? Or they had really distorted microbiome? Or what if they were living in mold and not really thinking that that was really an issue? What if they were bitten by a tick and never really addressed the tingling in their leg, but just thought that that was normal? What about dysmenorrhea, and painful periods, and uterine fibroids, and cysts, and headaches, and migraines? Can I keep going? There're so many symptoms that people just ignore day to day. And just because they are common, they think it's normal, right?
So, mom brings a baby with head to toe eczema as my doctor said. It's normal. So, I shouldn't do anything about it. It's not normal. It's common, but it's not normal. So really, I think that people have just pushed things under the rug and assume that they're healthy. But when I bring this all to the forefront, basically, lighting a mirror in front of their eyes, they just kind of realize, “Yeah, geez! I really wasn't taking good care of my health.” So, COVID is not random. I think, again, it's this analogy of the unhealthy host meets a virus and it just takes over.
[00:18:49] SCOTT: In “long COVID”, there are people like yourself, like Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, that suggests that long COVID is chronic COVID, and that antiviral therapies can be very helpful. I know other people suggest that long COVID is the activation of Epstein Barr Virus, and Bartonella, and mycoplasma, maybe not still having active or chronic COVID. But that those things now are the issue. So, do we feel that COVID essentially is opening the door to the activation of some of these other latent infections? Or is it a combination of all of the above?
[00:19:28] DR. MARIE: Exactly, it's a combination. And in some cases, it can just be a virus. And in some cases, it can be just an activation. So, it's not all cases across the board. But I've seen more of the combination be of truth than anything else. Much like this argument between is there a persistent virus? Or are these viral fragments? I believe it's both. I really do. I think in some cases, they have the persistent virus. And in some cases, they have the protein and the fragment that's causing a dysregulated immune system and an overactive immune system, or let's say an immune system that's intolerant. So, I do think it can be a combination.
And I think it's really – I think, as practitioners, we’re best to look at this as more of a gray zone than black and white. The minute we start to segregate things, I think that we can just go down a rabbit hole that could be detrimental for the patient. I think we all have to look at this with open eyes. We don't all have the answers yet. We're still learning. And I will preface that I'm telling you what I know now, September 20, whatever it is, 2022. And that may change in six months.
[00:20:44] SCOTT: So, if we're thinking about SARS-CoV2 as a persistent virus in some people, or chronic COVID, do you feel that once they start to recover, that you're doing all the things you're doing, including antivirals, do you feel like the virus then is cleared from their system? Or do we think it might be something like Epstein Barr Virus where it's now just going to be there for the duration of our time on this planet? And when we become stressed, or emotional issues come up, or we're not eating right, or any of those things, that it might then become active again when we have that immune dysregulation?
[00:21:19] DR. MARIE: My guess is that you're right. My guess is this is, again, so early on. We're just treating our first rounds of long COVID in this last year, year and a half. So, my guess is you're right. My guess is it's going to be like Lyme. It's going to be the same issue.
I just, this morning, got off the phone with a case of relapsing tick fever that I spoke to three weeks ago. I hadn't seen this gentleman since 2015. And he was all better until he got COVID. And then didn't treat it acutely. And then wound up in my office. Really, really sick with severe fevers again, every single night, debilitating fatigue, nausea, and GI issues and diarrhea.
Anyway, within three or four days of starting the treatment that I recommended, which honestly was 80% weighted on treating the relapsing tick fever, a little bit of antivirals, and a little bit of adrenal support, he said, “I was better.” And when I asked, “How much better?” He said, “I was basically 98% better within three or four days of starting the treatment.”
And so, here we go. I did a little bit of antiviral. But I really treated the old stuff that got re-elicited, triggered, as we were talking about. So, I think that all these bugs – We’re 10-part bug, one-part human. Think about that. So, I think that SARS-CoV2 is in our microbiome. I mean, to date, I never got it. I'm not saying I'm not going to. But how couldn't I have gotten it after treating these people? Some of them come in office, right? So, it must be in my microbiome. Just like a woman who's had a yeast infection when she 15-years-old. She still has the yeast within her. Or a Lyme patients who's had exposure to spirochetes.
Our microbiome is our microbiome, and it's part – and it's just about living commensurately together and living together as friends and not foes. So, I think if we look at it in that approach, I think that's most helpful.
[00:23:23] SCOTT: Let's talk a little bit about prevention. So, how do we avoid this whole chronic COVID? I'm going to hazard a guess and say that very few of your prior patients became chronic COVID patients and that there are prevention strategies and things that you're recommending to your patients to help minimize the chances of that. So, what are some of those prevention strategies that you found most helpful in your patient population?
[00:23:49] DR. MARIE: Yes, and you're right, a lot of the long chronic COVID cases were not my patients prior to. There's a few that have relapse. But the ones that were on treatment, that's what I always say. While you're on treatment, I find these patients actually tend to do better because we're actually treating underlying immune support.
So, simple things like ACES. So, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, are really helpful. I like having people on quercetin. Most of my patients have mold illness. And so, quercetin is something that can kill a few birds with one stone at the same time. I sometimes put them on a low, very low dose of an antiviral called IMM-V by Beyond Balance. So, I sometimes just give them one or two drops, five days a week, or the days of they're going in the office, or the kids are going to school. So, very, very, very low dose.
I will sometimes you Sambucus or elderberry. I use food as medicine, as you know, Scott, a lot. One thing I'd like to mention is a recent speaker that I got to the privilege to meet and here speak at ILADS in Florida just recently, last weekend. And essentially, her name is Dr. Sabine Hazan. Watch out for her. She is changing health care. She's from Ventura, California. She's done extensive work on the microbiome, and analyzing fecal matter, and seeing the diversity.
So essentially, the point here is the more diversified your microbiome is, the healthier you are. So, the more our gardeners diversified, biodynamic, the healthier of a garden we will have. And so, she's doing studies on autistic children, and then children who are not. And doing fecal transplants that way and noticing a tremendous difference in the development of these autistic kids. She's also doing studies on SARS-CoV2 infections and why a mother or father won't get sick, but the children are sick. And again, it has to do with the microbiome.
And what she's found was that an increase in Bifidobacteria is one of the sole reasons as to why patients can overcome COVID quickly, while others cannot. And so, she has found a high count of Bacteroides and a low count of Bifidobacteria is one of the number one reason. And how she helps to resolve that is by telling people to start implementing slowly, if they can tolerate it, more fermented foods in their diet. Whether that's cabbage, or a carrot, or what have you. But even a little bit.
Now, I know that that may cause a problem with a lot of our mast cell patients. And again, that may be something that they want to aim for down the line. But those who can tolerate it even a little bit at a time, she's seen a huge, tremendous difference with. She also sees that vitamin D increases Bifidobacterial. COVID decreases Bifidobacteria. So, anything we can do to diversify or microbiome is going to make us as a population healthier.
So, sanitizing everything. What we did during the pandemic. We just over-sanitized, and that a sterile environment is not good for microbiome. Whether that's things that we put on our body, creams, what have you, you want to make sure that they're as natural as possible.
[00:27:16] SCOTT: So, a lot of these prevention strategies, quercetin, you mentioned NAC earlier, vitamin C, vitamin D, zinc. Glutathione I think is another one that can be – yeah, can be helpful. So, putting these things in place early on seems to be wise. But then let's talk about early treatment. So, let's say somebody does acquire acute COVID, how important is early treatment? And should we treat even if the case seems mild? Can we have a mild case of COVID that becomes chronic COVID? And is there essentially another parallel here between long COVID and chronic Lyme disease, whereby early treatment can really avoid years and, sadly, decades of suffering?
[00:28:01] DR. MARIE: Yes, absolutely. You treat no matter what. You treat if it's mild, if it's a stuffy nose, or just a simple cough. You treat always. You want to treat to support the immune system. So, in the early stages, this is where I throw the kitchen sink, honestly. So, I will look at diet, as I mentioned. I will look at supportive herbs like Andrographis, Artemisia, lomatium, mullein, marshmallow root as I mentioned. Black cumin oil can be very good antiviral. As well as balancing Th1, Th2.
I'll look at the higher doses of vitamin D, vitamin A, zinc. I may even look at some herbal formulas that I mentioned, like IMN-V, IMN-V-II, IMN-V-III can be very helpful. So, you really want to look at what the underlying cause and what is going on at those early stages. So, if they've got a bit more of a stuffy nose, as I said, or if they're suffering from a headache, I may use more of a Sambucus elderberry combination. I'll use colloidal silver in some cases. So, sometimes even I'll add in the adrenal support if needed. So, you really want to – and again, probiotic. Making sure we're upping that Bifidobacteria and giving them lots of rest, liquids, rest, all of those supportive therapies as much as possible.
[00:29:26] SCOTT: Is there any difference in how you would treat an acute COVID versus a chronic COVID? Is the primary difference that in the chronic COVID scenario you have to treat a lot of those prior comorbidities, or the Epstein Barr, or the Bartonella, or the mycoplasma that's flaring? Or are there any other differences in your treatment methodology?
[00:29:46] DR. MARIE: Yeah, good question. So, I would say the one thing that's different about this virus is that in the early stages, as you heard me mentioned, I talked about ACES. So, ACE, selenium, E, and zinc. It requires a lot of antioxidants. Quercetin as well. So, we really want to make sure that you're using antivirals and antioxidants.
When we're talking about long haul COVID, or chronic COVID, we kind of want to look at it the same way as we would address Lyme disease. So, you want to look at the viral load. But you also want to make sure that the patient is detoxing or draining. You want to look at the mitochondria. You want to look at more adrenal support, thyroid support. You want to look at those co infections that you talked about. The limbic system, which we can talk about in a little bit. But you want to look at it more from a high-level perspective and more of a complex chronic illness perspective, as opposed to treating an acute infection. You may want to still look at antivirals, as we mentioned. But you really want to encompass all the organ systems that play. Like, we talked about, if there's a sinus, more of a sinus congestion, you really want to add in those nasal sprays still. So, you really want to look at a more diversified global perspective.
What if they've got tingling? A lot of my patients are seeing – we're seeing this herpes zoster virus, where there's no sores, but their hairs are like electrical currents all over their skin. It just feels terrible. And it feels like shingles without the sores. You really want to be adding a lot of lysine in that case and using a lot of antivirals like IMN-V that I use a lot. I use some Physica products like Mono-Tox or Viru-Tox if I'm suspecting a lot more of an Epstein Barr Virus perspective.
Now the other thing I'd like to talk about is this immune dysregulation with the chronic COVID. So, in this case, I use a lot of LDI therapy, which is low dose immunotherapy. I was trained by Dr. Vincent. And if you want more information, you can look up globalimmunotherapy.com. But the idea of this therapy is calming down the immune system intolerance to the virus.
So, we use an antigen that is called upper respiratory infection, and it works very, very, very well for bringing back the loss of smell and loss of taste, anosmia, ageusia. And it really does work effectively within sometimes days or even a short as a week.
I sometimes use the Food MX, the environmental mix, to actually calm down the immune reactions to it. And what it can do is just calm down the immune system that's overreacting all the time to the COVID virus or to Epstein Barr. So, you can use it for many different antigens. And it really, really helps to set the stage and calm everything down after that cascade.
[00:32:50] SCOTT: Yeah, that was really my next question, is how much focus should we have on killing? And how much should we have on immune modulation? You mentioned Herpes zoster. And I've shared this story before, but I think it fits nicely here. 5, 6, 7 years ago, I was with a mutual friend of ours getting off an airplane and started getting this weird, numbness, tingling kind of burning sensation in my left leg. And had it for probably two years. Energetically, it kept coming up as Herpes zoster.
And so, one dose of LDI. And then next morning, that sensation was completely gone. Now over a period of time, it came back. And so, I still consistently, every two months or so, will do another LDI for herpes zoster. And that keeps it from being an issue. So, the idea that a lot of what we see with these infections is the host response to the infection as much or maybe more than the microbe itself.
And I love that you also mentioned black seed oil, which is one of my – in the last two years, probably one of my favorites, and one that I take a lot of every day for not only its antiviral properties, but as you mentioned, the immune modulation support. So, how much of a split do you think we should have on killing versus immune modulation?
[00:34:07] DR. MARIE: Well, when we're at that third stage, I think that it's at least 50-50. It really depends on the patient. But it really is. And like you, I noticed huge changes with some of these patients. I mean, I dosed a patient yesterday with the EBV dose, and she noticed a difference that night. I got an email this morning saying that was a game changer. Like, my energy is all the way up. I just feel normal. I'm so hopeful.
And the other great thing about the LDI is that it's really inexpensive. And it's not something you have to take every day. As a running joke, I have teenage kids, and they always say, “Mom, isn’t there an LDI for this?” Meaning that, “Do I have to take this every day? Do I have to take this six times a day? Can you just dose me every two months?” So, it's a really favorable therapy with very low side effect. If you don't get the right antigen, nothing will really happen. But if you nail it – boy, if you go to a practitioner who really knows what they're doing, it can be a game changer, and life changing.
[00:35:13] SCOTT: I'm going to guess that when you're trying to figure out the dose or the dilution of the LDI, that you're using your system of energetic testing. And I know that for people that maybe don't have that insight, that people can flare on some of these LDI remedies if they get the wrong dilution. So, do you see that as well?
[00:35:32] DR. MARIE: I do. I do. You can. But I certainly don't want to dissuade a practitioner out there to do this therapy. I've done a lot of training with Dr. Vincent. I've been doing it for now over eight years. I can't believe it. And so, as long as you get the right training, there's a little bit of a mathematical equation to it all. So, you can do this without having energetic testing. And I just can't tell you what a game changer it's been for my patients, for my practice. And it's just been another tool in the box. And especially with these PANDAS children, I've got a lot of kids who have been reactivated by COVID or by a vaccine. And using the strep LDI has really calmed down, and the food one, and the environmental one for that matter, has really calmed down these neuropsychiatric symptoms that we're seeing in these kids after exposure to COVID, what have you. So, it really is a fantastic therapy.
[00:36:32] SCOTT: Are you finding that mast cell activation syndrome is getting triggered in people with COVID? How much of a contribution might that have to the symptoms of chronic COVID? And then how important is treating mast cell activation, or stabilizing mast cells, reducing histamine? What are some of your favorite tools? And then just building on what we just talked about, I would actually speculate that probably the low dose immunotherapy is helping in that realm as well and kind of quieting that over-active or hyper-vigilant immune response.
[00:37:01] DR. MARIE: Yeah. And there is no denying that COVID is having an impact on mast cells, because we're all seeing it. All my colleagues, we're all seeing so much mast cell. Even if you don't want to treat mast cell, you don't have a choice, because the influx of patients coming into our offices, in my clinical opinion, has doubled since COVID. So, there is a huge uptick in these symptoms.
And one of my – Yes, one of the tools I use is a lot of LDI. I start very, very low, Scott. I start a standard dose as a four-unit dose. I'll start them at one unit, and just sort of increment, partly because a lot of them have limbic system injury where they've been triggered by having so many symptoms for so many years, their limbic system has gone rogue. And they are persistently seeing these symptoms. And so, they have an aversion to trying new things. So, I go slowly. Gain their confidence and trust. And then once they start to do better, then the doors open, which is great.
The other thing I use is a lot of baicalin or Chinese skullcap. I’ll use quercetin and very tiny, tiny doses. I'm sometimes able to use black cumin oil, which is really nice. That's been very helpful. Sometimes I'll use Boswellia. Sometimes I'll use a little bit of curcumin. I work with a nurse practitioner who will sometimes prescribe ketotifen of cromolyn if need be. But you would just use your principles for treating mast cells. Kind of put the virus aside for a sec, calm the mast cells, and then interplay the viral piece if you can using LDI, using URI mix, the cold and flu one, mycoplasma, EBV, whatever comes into play.
[00:38:51] SCOTT: Some people with COVID are developing POTS or Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, which is a form of dysautonomia, dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system. Are you seeing that in your patients? Do we know the mechanism? And what are some ways that we can support or bring balance back to that autonomic nervous system?
[00:39:11] DR. MARIE: Yeah. I am seeing a lot of POTS. I think there are several reasons why we're seeing this. I think thrombosis and that third stage is an issue, hyper-coagulation, biofilms, are up regulating the viscosity and causing an autonomic issue. I think it's affecting – the virus is affecting the vagus nerve, which is also affecting that as an issue.
I also think that coinfections could be playing a part. So, Bartonella resurgence, babesia resurgence, could be also triggering a lot of the POTS-type syndrome. So, really going back to finding what the root cause is and moving forward with that, with the treatment, can be very helpful.
I find using biofilm busting with those patients, funny enough, can be very helpful. So lumbrokinase, nattokinase, serrapeptidase. BFM-1 is one I use a lot. Any type of digestive enzyme. Of course, they key is to use this away from food and not with food. That can be also very helpful with those patients. And of course, using limbic system retraining programs like Joe Dispenza, DNRS, Gupta programs can be very helpful.
The brain has been triggered by the virus. There's no doubt. We're not denying there's a virus. But that limbic system, which is in the midbrain, gets stuck and goes rogue and sees it as a threat, continuously as a stress response. And so, the body elicits the symptoms on a subconscious level. So, retraining the brain and those neuron patterns can really help these patients out of long COVID. And I know that Annie Hopper has found that it's been very helpful with – her trigger program has been very helpful with long COVID. And it's helped with quite a few of my patients as well.
[00:41:01] SCOTT: You've mentioned stage three a couple of times. How are you staging this acute versus chronic COVID. So, I'm assuming stage one is acute. What is stage two? And what becomes stage three?
[00:41:13] DR. MARIE: I would say that the stage one is the acute virus. The stage two would be that cytokine cascade storm that we've seen. And then stage three would be more of the long, chronic COVID state, where we're seeing all the other comorbidities in play.
[00:41:28] SCOTT: Let's talk a little bit about mold, or water damage, building exposure. We know that in chronic Lyme, in severe treatment resistant cases of chronic Lyme, that there's almost always a water damage building exposure. So, how commonly are you seeing water damage building exposure? And I say that because it's more than just mold. But how commonly is that a factor in the chronic COVID population? And how many of them then need to work to improve their external environment to support the healing of their internal environment?
[00:42:02] DR. MARIE: Yeah, great question. Because it's often the case. Some of these long haul, chronic COVID patients we're seeing aren't used to this thinking, right? They haven't been on the journey like most of the viewers out here. And so, they're not used to kind of thinking about all of the other aspects, environmental aspects, and all of these other things in the questioning. And my intake form is too long. And I just have COVID.
And so, we really have to take that into play. Because in a lot of cases, yes, I would have found that mold has been an underlying issue with a lot of them. And I'm really good with a questioning on my intake form. But oftentimes, we can pick it up with the symptoms that they're presenting with. And oftentimes, it's all in a good history. Certainly, my energetic testing can help. But if mold is at all an issue, or if you have been exposed to mold, you must look at that if you're suffering with chronic COVID.
[00:43:04] SCOTT: Let's talk about other environmental toxicants and the role they play in chronic COVID. So, heavy metals, chemicals, pesticides? Are those contributors? And what are some of the tools that you're finding most helpful in this detoxification and terrain improvement realm?
[00:43:21] DR. MARIE: Yeah. Sure. Glyphosate being a big one. Sometimes we'll run toxic panels to figure that out. Heavy metals is also a big one, as you mentioned. I will tell you, when the patient comes in, and they're so sick, even if the metals come up, I don't find it's the first thing I need to address. I often find those patients will get very, very, very sick if we address the metals at first.
So, you also want to look at environmental toxins. Off-gassing from couches, from their household items that they're not thinking of, or their workplace, right? Exposure to a patient who works at Lazy Boy, right? And so, he's constantly exposed to these fire retardants and etc. And those can be very, very – They fill up the garbage can and they just make it harder for you to get better. That's basically what I say. So, you just have to work harder at detoxing. It doesn't mean you may not get better. It just may take a lot longer or more effort. You may want to add in saunas, coffee enemas. You may want to add in PEMF therapy.
FSM. FSM, oh my gosh! I mean, we didn't talk about it during the treatment for long haul. But we've had really good success. So again, you can run some detox treatments with the FSM. You can – we talked about colonics, foot baths. Anything that you can do to help detoxify will help.
[00:44:49] SCOTT: In chronic Lyme, we know that hypercoagulation, biofilms, play a role. I know those are things that you know well from the chronic Lyme arena. We know that coagulation issues are significant in COVID as well. I don't think there's any question about that. So, how do you explore the potential for a hyper viscous or hypercoagulable state in your patients that are dealing with chronic COVID? What are some of the strategies? I know you mentioned lumbrokinase, nattokinase, serrapeptidases, those types of things. What are some of the tools you're using? And is this also a place where PEMF, or pulsed electromagnetic field therapy, can help in terms of supporting microcirculation?
[00:45:29] DR. MARIE: Yeah, absolutely. So, you named it all. Those are the things I use. I sometimes recommend FSM treatments as well. Sauna therapy can be very good as well. And if they are a little bit better, if they are able to exercise. Exercise is one of the really, really important things that they can do to move the lymphatics and help with coagulation. That can be very, very good.
[00:45:54] SCOTT: Let's talk a little bit about what's happening to the mitochondria and people with chronic COVID. Are the mitochondria themselves something that we believe are impacted by the virus? Are we finding mitochondrial support to be important? Could methylene blue have a role here? What are some of the favorite ways that you like to support the mitochondria? And I know one of them, of course, is frequency-specific microcurrent. But what are some of your favorite mitochondrial supporting strategies? And is that something we really need to be doing in these chronic COVID cases?
[00:46:26] DR. MARIE: Yeah, absolutely. So, in the case where I just talked about with the relapsing tick fever, in the testing that I did today, the last little bit that I needed to work on with him was mitochondria. So, the key with mitochondria support is to go top. Load them up with those nutrients quite heavy at first till they start to feel better and then lower the dosage. So, I'll use things like L carnitine. I’ll use CoQ10, alpha-lipoic acid. If they're able to exercise, that can be very helpful for mitochondrial. But when they're depleted, that's difficult. I understand. But if they are able to move a little bit, that can be very helpful. Methylene blue from my colleagues who use it. It's an electron donor. So, it can increase ATP, which inevitably will increase energy. So, I don't see why not. It's again out of my scope of practice. But my colleagues who are using it are finding tremendous success with it.
[00:47:24] SCOTT: Let's talk now about the role of hypothalamic pituitary adrenal thyroid axis and how that comes into the chronic COVID conversation. You've mentioned a couple of times supporting the adrenals. Are you finding that HPA or HPAT axis dysregulation and adrenal issues are a prerequisite for the development of chronic COVID? Or is it that the COVID itself is leading to or exacerbating this HPAT axis issue? Or can it happen in either direction or order?
[00:47:57] DR. MARIE: Correct. All of the above. Either direction. So, sure. As somebody depleted – and this is what happened with this gentleman. He was depleted before getting COVID and wound up with all these relapsing tick fever symptoms again. So yeah, depleted immune system, depleted adrenals, coming into sickness or exposure to a virus can set the stage. But also, the virus itself can deplete the adrenal glands, because you need energy, and to be able to fight a virus. If you're already depleted, you stand no chance. So, supporting the adrenal glands can be a key to helping these patients.
I go very light on my dosage, though. So, I don't use a very high dosage when they're that depleted. I'll start very low and increase, because it can kind of burn the car right out of the gate, and they can feel kind of sick actually with heart palpitations and feel quite unwell. So, really, supporting the adrenals, supporting the thyroid.
So, you can't rev up the engine of the thyroid and the metabolism without the support of the adrenal glands. So, sometimes I'll use some herbs or even iodine, black cumin oil in this case as well, to really help support that thyroid gland, hypothalamus, as well as the adrenal glands. That triad you talked about is really, really important in most cases of chronic COVID.
[00:49:27] SCOTT: Let's talk a little bit about metabolic issues and how they may be set the stage for chronic COVID. So, if someone has high blood pressure, or glucose dysregulation, or insulin-related issues, or endocrine dysregulation, are we finding them that they have a more difficult time in moving past COVID?
[00:49:47] DR. MARIE: Absolutely. Why? Because of inflammation, right? Obesity, heart disease, diabetes, they're all inflammatory states. They all in themselves cause hypercoagulation. So, they just sort of set the stage for an easy inflammatory cascade or cytokine storm once they get exposed to this virus.
So, really, really key to, again, go back, take care of our health. Make sure that we're eating right, exercising, all those fundamentals, to make sure that our host is not a hospitable host for these infections. Going back to Louis Pasteur and Antoine Béchamp, right? In the 1800s, right. So, one said the bug is the problem. The other guy said the terrain is the problem. In the end, I think they were both right. I don't know why they argued.
We have to clean up the terrain, but we also have to address the bug. It's not an all or nothing. And I think we're seeing an overarching theme here in this interview, that we really need to address all realms, all of it together, interweave it, as I say, in order to help a patient get better. It's not this or that. I have some patients who say, “Oh, I'll try this one thing first and then I'll come back and get the next thing.” And I really urge them to just sort of ignore that mindset that it's all interconnected. We have to interweave these treatments. And we have to address it as quickly and as tolerated by the body, not aggressively, as we can, in order to help these patients through.
[00:51:33] SCOTT: I want to come back to the loss of taste and smell, which has been very persistent in some people. A good friend of mine that had COVID a year and a half or so ago still deals with this loss of taste and smell. To some degree, it's improved.
[00:51:49] DR. MARIE: LDI.
[00:51:50] SCOTT: And I know you mentioned the URI mix. Are there other tools that you're seeing that are also helpful in bringing back the sense of taste and smell in people that are dealing with chronic COVID?
[00:52:01] DR. MARIE: If I'm to be honest, not as well as the URI mix. Because we're seeing neuronal damage in that nerve. So, it's not a long-term damage in most. It does come back for some, but not spontaneous as we would have thought. But it can be reversed. But I do think that there's an immune dysregulation happening, and that the immune system is actually attacking this molecular mimicry concept where we're seeing the infection at a gross state when it's not really actually causing a real issue. But the immune system is not defining it that way.
So, long to short, the LDI therapy helps to gain that immune tolerance. And by providing a smaller diluted dose of the antigen for Coronavirus mix, you can actually really help these people with loss of smell or taste. It's the one thing that I've seen can, overnight or within a week, really help these people gain that back very quickly.
[00:53:06] SCOTT: So, the way you're describing it, what comes to mind for me is that it's very similar to what happens to the myelin around nerves in MS when people have certain infections and the immune system gets misdirected and starts then actually attacking the myelin itself. Is that a reasonable analysis?
[00:53:22] DR. MARIE: Correct. Yeah.
[00:53:23] SCOTT: Okay, perfect. COVID hair loss is another major symptom that many people experience. Very distressing for people. I know some people have found Berberine to be helpful. That was something that Dr. Klinghardt talked about. Others, Dr. Jess Peatross talked about PEA as being helpful. What are you finding helpful for COVID associated hair loss?
[00:53:45] DR. MARIE: In some, I do find that a sustained release oregano oil that I use called ADP has been very, very helpful. I also find that just giving them a lot of the minerals in combination with treating an underlying infection can be very helpful. And over time, as you start to see their symptoms get better, that becomes less of an issue. The hair starts to grow back. It's just that the body is sequestering all these minerals to actually be able to provide immunoglobulins to fight these infections. So, over time, it does come back. I haven't seen it be a long-term issue.
[00:54:28] SCOTT: Excellent. Have you found that the variant matters much in terms of the potential development of chronic COVID? Is there any difference in your patience with the alpha, or delta, or omicron? Does the strain of the COVID impact your treatment direction in any way?
[00:54:45] DR. MARIE: I haven't really noticed a difference in terms of what strain a patient gets, although I'm limited in my testing. So, I might prefer to step from that answer. But I have noticed a difference in terms of some of the remedies or formulas that test better for different strains or different times. And that I have seen a difference. That can vary.
But, for example, during this started a pandemic, I was using a lot of IMN-V-III by Beyond Balance. But with omicron, I found I was using a lot of IMN-V. I was finding a lot of resurgence of Herpes zoster virus happening. And I found that that formula worked a lot better.
Now, I'm using a lot of Mono-Tox and seeing more of the EBV in the start of this fall. I'm using a lot of my IMN-VII, right now. So, I think that the treatments vary. And I feel so lucky to have energetic testing to help guide me through this as we push through. So, yeah, it is changing.
[00:55:53] SCOTT: In your experience, how is the presentation of someone with chronic COVID the same or different from someone that maybe has a COVID vaccine reaction? Are the treatment interventions completely different? Or is there a lot of overlap here?
[00:56:11] DR. MARIE: Yeah. The big difference, I would say – obviously, we talked about some of the symptoms we see with long COVID. But with the vaccine, injury or reaction to a vaccine, I would say it's more neurological issues, or specifically functional tremors that we're seeing a lot, inability or weakness in the legs, weakness in the arms, weakness at the site of the injury, or pain, that actually often travels up the neck. So, this is the major difference that we see when somebody has a reaction to the vaccine.
[00:56:44] SCOTT: And then is your approach to treatment, in general, completely different in that scenario? Or is there a lot of overlap between how you would treat that population versus a chronic COVID person?
[00:56:57] DR. MARIE: There is a lot of overlap. But I’m really focusing on doing a lot of drainage, detoxification. Making sure that lymphatics are working very well. I might use some FSM at the site of the injection. And I might do more targeted approach depending on where it is in the organ system or the body. So, that really is an open book in terms of what we are doing at BioHeal.
[00:57:25] SCOTT: Similar to chronic Lyme, there are those people that suggests that chronic COVID is a mental, emotional syndrome. It obviously is not. I mean, my original question was, is it mental, emotional? I think we've talked about that enough. But how much of a role does mental, emotional stress or trauma play in the development of chronic COVID in your experience?
[00:57:48] DR. MARIE: Well, absolutely, it will have an interplay here. Same as our chronic Lyme patients who've been mistreated, denied by conventional medicine by their own family support systems. These patients with chronic COVID are experiencing the same thing. They're being denied treatment. There is no treatment. It's exhausting to hear this all the time on the news, as a practitioner who's treating it on a daily basis.
And so, I just think that they're going through the same thing as chronic Lyme patients. And it is so sad. It is so sad. Why? Because there's hope. That's why it's so sad. There's hope for them to get better. And they can get better. They just have to find the right doctor. So, I think there's a huge similarity, interplay, parallel, whatever, intersection, whatever you want to call it. But it does play a big part.
[00:58:46] SCOTT: I love that. I mean, I think hope in the chronic Lyme disease realm, hope in the chronic COVID realm, is so important. And people are getting better. I very intentionally separate limbic system impairment from mental, emotional realm conversations, because I think that people are resistant to the limbic system conversation, because again, it's kind of the, “Oh, you're telling me it's in my head.” But the limbic system can be impaired by mold exposure, by infection, by environmental toxicants. It doesn't have to be. Though it can be. It doesn't have to be a mental, emotional trigger. We know that lots of other things can trigger this limbic system impairment.
So, like you commented earlier, I've been reading a lot of people that are dealing with chronic COVID having good results with the Gupta program, good results with Annie Hopper’s DNRS. So, why do you think those programs are helping people so much if there is still an active infection that may require some antiviral treatment?
[00:59:47] DR. MARIE: Well, I think it's helping so much because those programs are calming down that dysregulated limbic system that's gone rogue from the trigger of the infection. The body's still sees it as a stress response and has been caught up in that cycle. And what those programs do is calm down that part of it and help the body gain new neuron patterns, positive neuron patterns, that can really help to mitigate and decrease those symptoms.
And so, I have seen patients really do tremendously well with that support at play. It's not the right program for all people. It's not that all long haul chronic COVID patients should be doing this program. But for some, it is incredible. It really is.
[01:00:43] SCOTT: You've been working so much in this realm. And people listening, I'm sure there's going to be some people that want to know if you're taking new patients or how they can access care similar to what you're talking about here. So, can you tell us a little bit about that? And what might be available through your clinic, BioHeal Ottawa?
[01:01:00] DR. MARIE: Yeah. Yes, we are taking patients in-person, virtually. We have many practitioners in our clinic. So of course, we're always accepting new patients. I'm also running a new program called Lyme Bright Collective. And it's an aspirational educational program. It's a force of good, Scott. And it is a community-based program to – first one out there to really help Lyme patients and not feel so alone, but then gain a huge understanding about their physiology all at the same time and learning how to help them through. And what are the missing pieces that they're lacking in their treatment. So, anybody around the world can join.
[01:01:43] SCOTT: Yeah. The Lyme Bright Collective, I know we've had conversations about that. I'm super excited that you're putting that together. I think it'll be amazing for people that join and learn from you and your experience. I will put a link to that in the show notes for people that are interested. So, super excited to learn more about what you're going to be doing and sharing there.
My last question is the same for every guest. And that is what are some of the key things that you do on a daily basis in support of your own health? I know you're one of those, you definitely walk the talk. So, what are you doing these days?
[01:02:16] DR. MARIE: So, exercise. I'm a little bit obsessed with exercise right now, because it's just – it's so beautiful and lovely. And I always feel so good. It always elevates my mood. I do some lemon water in the morning. I will do some saunas. I will try to eat as clean as possible. I'm not perfect. But I do my best that way. And I sort of rotate different things that I do. But I'm always making sure that I'm doing something, either an FSM treatment, or hop on the PEMF, or do a foot bath, what have you. So, I’m trying to implement that on a daily basis, anything to do to help me detox. Taking a bit of supplements that I'm attracted to. I'm really love TUDCA these days. So, I'm taking a lot of that. But I rotate these things.
And you know, one of the things with some of my patients ask me is like, “When do we stop detoxing?” And my answer is always, “Until we don't live on this planet, we always have to detox.” That's how I try to maintain my health, is just to keep emptying that garbage pail. And I think if our garbage pail is less full, then we may be able to take on some of these triggers that we may be exposed to.
[01:03:24] SCOTT: I totally agree. TUDCA three times a day right now. So, it's funny, we're on that same resonance at the moment.
Dr. Matheson, this conversation was just so rich of information and experience. Like, I mentioned earlier, I've probably known you for more than a decade now, and definitely are someone that is at the very top of my list of people that I love and respect, and just value and cherish what you do to bring light and minimize the suffering and struggle that other people are experiencing in this world. And so, I just want to thank you for being here and sharing your knowledge. But really more so for being the person that you are.
[01:04:06] DR. MARIE: Oh, thank you. Right back at you, Scott.
[01:04:09] SCOTT: To learn more about today’s guests, visit BioHealOttawa.com That's BioHealOttawa.com. BioHealOttawa.com.
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