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In this episode, you will learn about the Adrenal Transformation Protocol. 

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About My Guest

My guest for this episode is Dr. Izabella Wentz.  Izabella Wentz, PharmD, FASCP is a compassionate, innovative, solution-focused integrative pharmacist dedicated to finding the root causes of chronic health conditions.  Her passion stems from her own diagnosis with Hashimoto's thyroiditis in 2009, following a decade of debilitating symptoms.  As an accomplished author, she has written several best-selling books, including the New York Times best seller "Hashimoto's Thyroiditis: Lifestyle Interventions for Finding and Treating the Root Cause," the protocol-based #1 New York Times best seller "Hashimoto's Protocol: A 90-Day Plan for Reversing Thyroid Symptoms and Getting Your Life Back," and the Wall Street Journal best seller "Hashimoto's Food Pharmacology: Nutrition Protocols and Healing Recipes to Take Charge of Your Thyroid Health."  Her latest book, "Adrenal Transformation Protocol," focuses on resetting the body's stress response through targeted safety signals and features a 4-week program that has already helped over 3,500 individuals.  The program has an impressive success rate, with over 80% of participants improving their brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, irritability, sleep issues, and libido.  

Key Takeaways

  • Is adrenal fatigue a real condition?
  • Is the larger problem the adrenals or the mitochondria?
  • What are key symptom clues for adrenal dysregulation?
  • How important is testing to assess adrenal issues?
  • How do we decrease danger signals and increase safety signals?
  • Should the adrenals be addressed before the thyroid?
  • How often are DHEA, hydrocortisone, or adrenal glandulars needed?
  • Is the need for caffeine a trigger for or the result of adrenal issues?
  • Can high chlolesterol be a clue for adrenal issues?
  • How important is working on the vagus nerve, the limbic system, the autonomic nervous system, and feeling safe in the world?
  • How often do Lyme disease and mold illness impact the adrenals?
  • What is an inverted cortisol pattern?
  • Can a CGM provide clues as to factors impacting the adrenals?
  • What are some of the top interventions in the Adrenal Transformation Protocol?
  • Is adrenal dysregulation a factor in POTS?
  • What are the ABCs of adrenal support?
  • Which adaptogens might be supportive?
  • Might nasal oxytocin have a role in an adrenal support protocol?
  • What are some approaches for reducing ammonia?

Connect With My Guest


Interview Date

May 4, 2023


Transcript Disclaimer: Transcripts are intended to provide optimized access to information contained in the podcast.  They are not a full replacement for the discussion.  Timestamps are provided to facilitate finding portions of the conversation.  Errors and omissions may be present as the transcript is not created by someone familiar with the topics being discussed.  Please Contact Me with any corrections.  


[0:00:02] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts, empowering your better health. Now, here's Scott, your BetterHealthGuy.


[0:00:14] ANNOUNCER: The content of this show is for informational purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any illness, or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or is information to facilitate self-treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health-related decisions with your own personal medical authority.


[0:00:34] SCOTT: Hello everyone, and welcome to episode number 184 of the BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts Series. Today's guest is Dr. Izabella Wentz. The topic of the show is the Adrenal Transformation Protocol.

Dr. Izabella Wentz is a compassionate, innovative, solution-focused integrative pharmacist, dedicated to finding the root causes of chronic health conditions. Her passion stems from her own diagnosis with Hashimoto's thyroiditis in 2009 following a decade of debilitating symptoms.

As an accomplished author, she's written several bestselling books including The New York Times bestseller, Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis: Lifestyle Interventions for Finding and Treating the Root Cause, the protocol-based number one New York Times bestseller, Hashimoto’s Protocol: A 90-day Plan for Reversing Thyroid Symptoms and Getting Your Life Back, and the Wall Street Journal bestseller, Hashimoto’s Food Pharmacology: Nutrition Protocols and Healing Recipes to Take Charge of Your Thyroid Health.

Her latest book, Adrenal Transformation Protocol focuses on resetting the body's stress response through targeted safety signals and features a four-week program that has already helped over 3,500 individuals. The program has an impressive success rate with over 80% of participants, improving their brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, irritability, sleep issues, and libido. Now, now my interview with Dr. Izabella Wentz.


[00:02:03] SCOTT: I am very excited today to have the thyroid pharmacist, Dr. Izabella Wentz on the show, to talk about the adrenals and her transformative approach outlined in her latest book, Adrenal Transformation Protocol. Thanks so much for being here, Dr. Wentz.

[00:02:18] DR. WENTZ: Thank you so much for having me, Scott. It's such a delight to be here with you.

[00:02:22] SCOTT: Talk to us about the personal path that led you to making the thyroid and the adrenals the focus of your work. Did you have your own health journey that was the catalyst for the work that you do today?

[00:02:34] DR. WENTZ: I did. During pharmacy school, I was never really interested in the thyroid gland. I was taught that essentially, if you have hypothyroidism, you just need to take a pill, and that people will get better with taking thyroid hormone. I was also taught that these conditions tend to happen in women who are older, so maybe women who are menopause age. I personally started having health issues during my first year in undergraduate studies where I just went from a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed person, to all of a sudden, being so exhausted, that I went to take a nap for the study.

After class, one day, I had an exam the following morning at 7am, and I took a nap in the afternoon, and I woke up at like 8am the next day. Of course, I didn't get a chance to study, right? I run to my exam and I'm crying tears. I got there and I was like, “I overslept.” Well, it happens. You were probably up late studying. I was like, “But I wasn't. I took a nap last – in the afternoon, the day before.”

This kind of fatigue never really left me. For many years, I just learned to adjust my life. I was like, “Okay, I know I need to study so I can’t participate in life, basically. I have to just focus on my studies.” As time went on, I became a pharmacist. By that point, I actually had a lot of symptoms. I had started new onset anxiety, and panic attacks, and hair loss, and carpal tunnel, just a long list of symptoms. But I also had a bit of more knowledge than I did as a student, so then I realized that not all doctors are created equally. I was like, “Oh, so I've been going to the doctor every year complaining about these symptoms and really wasn't getting any answers.”

I sought out some additional doctors and finally learned that I had Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, which is an autoimmune thyroid condition, that results in the thyroid gland getting destroyed. It can't produce its own thyroid hormone. Many of the symptoms just really, really fit for what I had been going through for the previous decade. Part of me was excited to finally have an answer and I was like, “Yes, I get on thyroid meds. That's going to be great.” But of course, I was also sad I had because I was like, “How did I develop this condition in my 20s when most women are supposed to get that when they're “older”? Is there anything from a lifestyle standpoint that I can do to prevent this condition from getting more aggressive or potentially reverse the condition?”

I got on the medications, and they helped a little bit, but not all the way. This is how I became a Hashimoto’s expert/human guinea pig was really trying to take back my own health and figuring out the onions of an autoimmune thyroid disease, and what are the layers of that onion that we need to peel to figure out what was triggering it? Initially, I thought it would be one thing. I was like, “Oh, I heard about going gluten free.” I went gluten free. That really, really helped. But then, my irritable bowel syndrome, my acid reflux went away. But then I still continued to have the anxiety and the morning fatigue, fatigue throughout the day, unrefreshing sleep.

Somebody mentioned the word adrenal fatigue to me. I was like, “Well, let me look it up in my websites that I look things up on as a pharmacist.” It said, I don’t know, if it was Mayo Clinic or Medline that said, “Adrenal fatigue doesn't exist.” I was like, “Oh, okay. It doesn't exist.” So went back on my searching for answers and eventually came back to it after like the 15th person mentioned adrenal fatigue to me and I did the testing. Sure enough, I had low cortisol throughout the day, and I tried the recommendations, and I actually got better. I was like, “Oh, so there's this thing that doesn't exist and I'm doing what they recommend, what these voodoo doctors say to do, and the voodoo things actually helped.”

I've been talking about all the different ways to overcome thyroid issues in the last decade, and I have a really special place for adrenal dysfunction in my heart. This is something that I've helped the majority of my people with thyroid issues with. Five years ago, my own methods for helping people recover from adrenal dysfunction were really put to the test. When I was a new mom and I couldn't utilize some of the recommended integrative recommendations, like, taking hormones, or sleeping a lot, or quitting coffee. So, I had to come up with a new pathway to rebalance that stress response, sometime known as adrenal dysfunction.

[00:07:32] SCOTT: Yes. It's amazing how many of these conditions that are so very real are really invalidated. My personal health journey has been chronic Lyme disease and mold illness, and it's – fortunately, it's getting a little better. But years ago, when I was really dealing with those, those were also all imaginary, all in your head, didn't exist, weren't real.

You mentioned the adrenal fatigue. For years, adrenal exhaustion or adrenal fatigue are discussed as contributors to dis-ease and yet, as you pointed out, some people argue that they're not real conditions. Is adrenal “fatigue” a real condition? How important is optimizing the adrenals to support optimized health?

[00:08:18] DR. WENTZ: I think there's a lot of controversy about this term, adrenal fatigue. There is something known as adrenal insufficiency and Addison's disease, which is a conventionally recognized condition, where usually it's an autoimmune condition as well, where 90% of the adrenal glands will be under attack. By the time they’re 90% damaged,  they're no longer able to make their own cortisol. So, this is a situation where, typically, people need to get on medications. They have very severe symptoms, oftentimes landing them in like emergency rooms, intensive care units. People can't get out of bed and they can't walk. Very, very serious kind of symptoms.

I think, the confusion stems from the naturopathic doctor that first coined the term adrenal fatigue, had noticed this pattern in people where they had a cluster of symptoms that were a little bit related to what a person with low cortisol might present with. They tended to be a bit more mild, although still, if you've had adrenal dysfunction, it is very much something that can interfere with your ability to thrive. You might have that fatigue. You might have the brain fog. A mild depression. Refreshing sleep disconnected – being disconnected from the circadian rhythm. Difficulty with bright lights and salt cravings. If you get up too quickly, you might feel faint.

For the people that are experiencing it, it's very, very real. It is very much a real response of what the body does when it's under stress. I don't mean just, you have an annoying boss that yells at you, it's oftentimes it's inflammatory stress. Your body is overwhelmed by, potentially, it's something like traumatic psychological stress, maybe you're burning the bridge at both ends, maybe you're not eating enough calories. Oftentimes, it's also things like chronic mold exposure, or an infection in your gut that's causing a lot of inflammation.

For many people, it's a combination of all of these things that come together and really overwhelm that stress response. It is a real thing. It is a real physiological response. I don't think the term, the original hypothesis of Dr. Wilson. He thought that adrenal, that this like cluster of symptoms was a mild version of Addison's, and that the adrenal glands were damaged, and unable to produce hormones. What we now understand is that this is not necessarily the right mechanism of action. The mechanism of action is that because of all this stress, our adrenals start to compensate. Rather than producing lots of cortisol all day, which is what they normally do under acute stress, they will start suppressing some of that cortisol production and the scientific term of this is hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysfunction.

People will say, “Adrenal fatigue doesn't exist.” I'm like, “Well, first of all, look at the people who have these very real symptoms, and also look at the research, where if you look up hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysfunction, this is it right?” I personally don't care what people call it. Some people have called it burnout. Some people have called it adrenal fatigue. Some people just call it fatigue. My preferred term is hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysfunction. It's not necessarily fun to say. I've settled on the term adrenal dysfunction. But it is a very real phenomenon. It is not necessarily a diagnosable disease by conventional medicine standards.

[00:12:10] SCOTT: When we look at hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal, some people add thyroid to that at the end as well. This HPA or HPAT axis dysfunction, essentially, are the solutions then more aimed at supporting the adrenals, and supporting the thyroid, or some of the interventions, things that are more upstream, looking to support the hypothalamus, the pituitary. Where did the interventions fit in the conversation?

[00:12:39] DR. WENTZ: You can do interventions at any point of that pathway, right? Some practitioners will say, “This person has this presentation, and their cortisol output all day is low.” So, they would utilize hydrocortisone as a medication to try to raise up and mimic the natural body's production of cortisol throughout the day. They might utilize something like pregnenolone and DHEA to mimic that production pregnenolone turns into. It's the mother hormone that turns into a whole host of different symptoms. So, you could absolutely do it that way.

You can also approach it from the other direction, where you look at, okay, what is the root cause? And why are people stuck in this chronic stress response? It's to address stress, right? Figuring out what's driving that HPA axis dysfunction, and a lot of times it is because we're constantly getting those stress messages.

[00:13:37] SCOTT: I've seen some people that previously talked about adrenal dysfunction shifting away from that, where now they're more focused on mitochondrial dysfunction, that production of ATP, the energy currency of the body, that also, obviously has an effect on the adrenals. I'm wondering, is there a connection between what we may have thought of as adrenal dysfunction and what we now might think of as mitochondrial dysfunction? What's the overlap between those two conditions or terms?

[00:14:06] DR. WENTZ: Well, one of the interesting things is that the mitochondria are actually the production side of pregnenolone, which is our mother hormone. I mean, in my experience, the protocols I was using for adrenals in the past, were very much based on supporting that, that towards the end of the line spectrum where utilizing hormones to mimic that pathway. I was also working on some lifestyle changes to really lower the stress. But what I found in my work is that supporting mitochondrial function can be extremely helpful for balancing adrenals, as well, and for resolving the brain fog, and resolving the fatigue.

Throughout my – you might notice, the title of my book is Adrenal Transformation Protocol, and that stands for ATP, right?

[00:14:59] SCOTT: Yes. So beautiful.

[00:15:03] DR. WENTZ: Yes. If you're a nerd, you get it, right? I feel like it's both, oftentimes, where you do need to do some support for the adrenals, and you do need to focus on mitochondria. There's a whole other bunch of different systems that might be broken that we need to address to really recover from those symptoms, such as blood sugar issues, and some gut permeability. I've tried to – I really look at results, and how do I get people results so they feel better? Some of the other things I used to recommend, I would be like, “Do all these testing, and quit caffeine, and do this.” People were like, “Bye. Not talking to you again.”

Really, what I found is when you focus on utilizing some of the adrenal strategies in conjunction with mitochondrial strategies and some of the other safety signals that I talk about in my book, then you can really get really fantastic results, like 92% of people have less brain fog, through using these strategies. Though, the old school approach that I used to use, it might take three months to two years for people to see these results, where with this approach, it's like four weeks where most people see results, and some people do see them within like the few days or the first second week of doing that lifestyle changes, and utilizing some of the interventions.

[00:16:30] SCOTT: Yes. I loved how holistic your approach is, and looking at so many different areas where we can remove stress from the body, remove these danger signals, create safety signals as you term it in the book. Let's come back to – you just mentioned testing. How important is testing when it comes to exploring potentially adrenal dysfunction, dysregulation? Do we need to do that? If we do, do that, do you prefer the salivary adrenal profiles? Or maybe something like the DUTCH test, which is using dried urine? Do you think it's critical to test? Or can we work primarily with symptoms, and then empirically introduce some of these things that you talk about in your protocol?

[00:17:11] DR. WENTZ: I personally love functional medicine testing, and I would test my – I've tested myself like every other month for the last 10 years with various cool innovative tests. Anybody that I've worked with, I'm always recommending tests. The challenge has been for me with educating people in books and online, I'll be like, “You need to look into adrenal dysfunction.” They'll go to their endocrinologist, and they'll be like, “I want to have my adrenals tested.” They’ll be tested for Addison's, which they don't have. Then, I'll be like, “No, you have to go to an integrative doctor and do something like a saliva profile or the DUTCH test.” Maybe they'll find somebody eventually, and then they'll pay out of pocket for the tests. Then, the test sits on their shelf for like three months. Maybe, they finally send it in, and it's like, four weeks later, they get the results. I'm like, “But we can make such a big difference in four weeks if we just focus on lifestyle.”

For me, I personally would love if every single person that had a million dollars and did all these tests, I really love the ZRT adrenal saliva profile and the DUTCH profile. Both of those are fantastic. I will say, for the average person, I haven't – you can – I could teach you how to interpret an adrenal saliva test in 20 minutes to understand your results and what to do. The DUTCH test, I feel I've spent like seven years learning it and I'm still learning new things about it every other week. It's one of those nuances where definitely, you want to be working with a practitioner that's knowledgeable on how to interpret those tests as well. All of these things can really be barriers for people to get the care that they need, right?

My thought process has been that a lot of times, we can figure out that we're in this stressed out state, this adrenal dysfunction state, just by looking at our symptoms. We can do so much to resolve those symptoms in four weeks, in the time that it would take us to do a test, and get the test results back that, I'm like, “You can do a four-week protocol, and if you still have the symptoms at the end of the protocol, which majority of the people who do the work, they don't, then, by all means, invest in the testing, and make sure you find a practitioner that can work with you.” There are these protocols like utilizing hydrocortisone, and pregnenolone, and DHEA. All of these hormonal therapies that may be something to utilize. If some of the solid mitochondrial support and lifestyle changes haven’t helped.

[00:20:02] SCOTT: I think it's interesting, particularly in the chronic infection community, chronic Lyme community, when people hear hydrocortisone, a lot of times, they're like, “Oh, my gosh, that's a steroid, and that's going to suppress my immune system, and my infections are going to get worse.” But when you're using it correctly at low dose for purposes of supporting the adrenals, that is not the case. So, I think, sometimes one of the biggest needle movers for people is introduction for some period of time of hydrocortisone, and it can be tremendously helpful.

When we think about stress as items that are stressing the adrenals, but we know we also could not survive without stress. What are some of the stressors that are more likely impacting the adrenals in a negative way, as compared to being more hormetic, or healthy stressors? Then, is that dynamic? Meaning, something that might stress me when I have adrenal dysregulation might later be something that the body can, in a more healthy way, manage and respond to. Talk to us about some of those things that are stressors to the adrenals.

[00:21:04] DR. WENTZ: Absolutely. I think we all can be – it's pretty easy to recognize psychological stress, right? We have a toxic workplace, maybe difficult family situation, and that might be one source of stress that people – I think a lot of people are acutely aware of it if they're in that stressful situation.

I had a person review one of my books, and they said, “I didn't need to do anything that she said. I just quit my job and got out of town, away from my toxic boss, and I healed.” I'm like, “Yes, absolutely. If you can identify the source of the stress that those rocks that are weighing you down, then you can absolutely heal.” I wish it was that simple for most people. It's not.

There's also traumatic stress. Anytime you might have ACEs, adverse childhood events are things that have happened to us as children, even young adults, even in our recent lives that might be traumatic, and that may stay with us. Some of the more well-known things might be Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or somebody that survived a mass shooting at a school. Now, every time they pass a school, they get palpitations, they get a cold sweat, they have a hard time walking into a school. You can see how this is connected, right? But there might be other micro stressors that we maybe have had, that can still shift our HPA axis to more of over responsive state, or where we're seeing the world through different colored glasses, where we're looking around, and we feel like everybody's a threat to us, rather than this person could be a future friend, or this person is neutral.

These are some stressors that I will say a lot of people may not be aware of, where they have had some trauma in their lives that's not been processed. I talk about ways to process this trauma if that's relevant for people. Then there are things like our lifestyle. We're watching news a lot and it's all doom and gloom, right? That sends our body a signal that we're not safe. Even though the situation may be hundreds and thousands of miles away, we're still feeling it like it's within, happening to our bodies if we're tuned into that. Then, there might be things like over exercising, and under eating, eating foods that are inflammatory to us. Not getting enough sleep, whether that is self-induced, or because of something like sleep apnea or insomnia. Burning the bridge at both ends. Overworking, not having that time to rest. These can all be drivers of that inflammation and that stress for our bodies.

Then, there are things from our – one of the big ones is just blood sugar. If we're eating too many, too much sugar, too many carbohydrates, not enough protein and fat, that can actually be a stressor for the body. Every time we eat too much high carb foods, that could set us up on a blood sugar roller coaster where we get a spike in our blood sugar, and then we might get a crash when we might become hypoglycemic. Then, cortisol gets released to produce more glucose through the liver. So, that can be a stressor for many people.

Then, there are also like inflammatory sources of stress. In people that I've worked with, it might be like an H. pylori infection that's in their gut that's causing stress. It might be a protozoal infection. It could be something like a toxic exposure, like mold or Lyme. It could be a nutrient deficiency. A lot of times, people – it's interesting because people will say, “Adrenal fatigue doesn't exist. That's actually a mitochondrial issue. It doesn't exist. It's actually PTSD. It doesn't exist. It's actually trauma. It doesn't exist. It's actually, fill in the blank, whatever specialty it is.” But the truth of the matter is, anything that's overwhelming for your system is going to send you in that stress response.

I get this common question a lot. What about positive stress? What about exercising and high intensity exercise, right? What about fasting? Cold plunges? And all of these wonderful things that can really help us build resilience, and spending time in community? In my experience, the people that I've worked with, it depends on what level of adrenal dysfunction you have. If you're in that flatline, cortisol state, you're going to hear fasting is good for you. You fast and you feel awful. You're going to hear that exercise is good. You do exercise, you have to recover for three days. Everybody is like, “Build community, socialize, spend time with friends.” And you spend time with friends, and you're like, “Why did I do that? Now, I have to take two weeks off from talking to people.” And cold plunges.

All of these things, when you just have this high degree of stress and inflammation, your body can't produce the right kind of stress response to it, where your body will just become overwhelmed. One of the big symptoms of adrenal dysfunction is feeling overwhelmed all the time. Normal things like cleaning the house, or taking the dog for a walk, or tasks of daily living can be overwhelming. So, some of these health trends that I can do today, that I enjoy doing today, and that people who have a stable adrenal function can do and benefit from, people with that low cortisol curve, that can potentially make them feel worse. These are the people that come to me. They're like, “I'm doing this. I'm doing all the things. But why do I feel so awful.”

[00:27:05] SCOTT: In the book, you talk about inflammation, circadian rhythm, balance, or imbalance nutrition, psychological stresses, areas where we can get some of these danger signals. I like that you just explained to us that something that could be stressing to the adrenals, when we're in more of an adrenally exhausted state might be hormetic, at some point in the future. It might be a stress that actually then results in a positive response or almost like going to the gym and having a positive response.

Another thing that came to mind was, I've heard somebody say that if you take your three fingers, and you put them here on your neck, that if you feel a heartbeat, that that's a sign you probably have adrenal dysregulation in our modern society. That it's just, unfortunately, so incredibly common, right?

[00:27:57] DR. WENTZ: I’m trying to think through my medical training, and I was like, “I think everybody – ah, I get it. I get it.” That's a really good one.

[00:28:08] SCOTT: You have said in the book that when the danger signals outweigh the safety signals that the body goes into survival mode. You just talked about some of these danger signals. We're going to talk about some of the safety signals, so we want to remove as many dangerous signals as possible. We want to introduce or increase safety signals so that the body can shift out of survival mode. You are very well known for your work in the thyroid realm, having yourself, as you mentioned, having Hashimoto’s. What's the connection between the adrenals and the thyroid? And should we support the adrenals before we attempt to support the thyroid? Does the order matter?

[00:28:49] DR. WENTZ: Oh, my gosh. That's such a good question. When I first started working with clients, I would test them for adrenal dysfunction. Most of them, had it. They had some degree of it. About 62% of the labs I analyzed, ended up with that low cortisol pattern. But it's interesting because there's a definitely a feedback loop between our hormones and our body. So, with the adrenal hormones, with cortisol, and thyroid hormone, there's a few different things that can happen when we have a lot of stress in our lives. Typically, people who might have high cortisol, they might produce more of something known as reverse T3, which is an inactive thyroid hormone that can set up in our thyroid receptors, and you can have a perfectly healthy thyroid producing just the right amounts of hormones. But if you produce reverse T3 and too much of it, that's going to sit in those receptors and you can actually have “thyroid symptoms”, even though you don't have a thyroid disorder, per se.

I’ve had a small population that have come to me that doesn’t have thyroid issues. It’s like they have adrenal issues. That’s the cause behind their weight gain and their fatigue. Some of them have actually, been put on thyroid medications, which is not indicated, which can actually be a dangerous situation to be on thyroid meds when you don’t have a thyroid condition. In that case, you absolutely need to focus on the adrenals, right?

Typically, that person will have – generally, they won't have thyroid antibodies. They might have a normal thyroid ultrasound. They will have a lot of the symptoms. If you test their reverse T3, that might be elevated. Sometimes the TSH might be as high as like a three that I would see from these patterns. Typically, adrenal support is going to be what is needed to get them in balance so that they don't have so much of that reverse T3.

Then, the other pattern, and this is the majority of my clients being The Thyroid Pharmacists. Most people that come to me, they like already know they have thyroid diagnosis. They would have Hashimoto’s, and they would find out that they have Hashimoto’s, and they would get on thyroid medications. Many of them like myself, were like, “Oh, great. I'm going to have something that's helpful.” They get on thyroid medications. Initially, they feel better. But after some time, usually a few weeks, they're like, “I feel worse. Why is my energy plummeted? What is going on?”

The interesting thing is that thyroid hormone can – we don't have enough of it, then our breakdown of cortisol can slow down. This is an adaptive response of the body, that hypothyroidism will result in our cortisol metabolism being slower. When people get on thyroid medications, this can mean that they can unmask a low cortisol state. Because when you get on thyroid medication, your cortisol clearance normalizes, which means that it's probably going to increase from what it was. Even though your cortisol maybe was in the low to normal range, or the normal to high range, all of a sudden, once that clearance starts to normalize, you might find yourself with low cortisol.

I think it just goes to show a lot of times when I work with people, I will ask them the question, what happened before you got sick? There's always something, like, I've had a really stressful situation in my life. Typically, a person gets this really big stressor that may cause them to essentially get into this adrenal dysfunctional state after some time. It might take one year, it might take five, sometimes 10 years, where their cortisol will become flatlined, if they let this go on long enough.

This is an interesting pattern that I've seen with quite a few people with Hashimoto’s, where all of a sudden, you get on thyroid meds, and all of a sudden, your adrenals, that your adrenal issues start to manifest. Do you treat the thyroid or the adrenals first? In Addison's disease, you always want to treat the adrenals first, because then you can have an Addisonian crisis when you take thyroid hormone. In people with Hashimoto’s and adrenal dysfunction, I feel like you should do the both simultaneously, especially if you're experiencing – not everybody will have crashed cortisol once they start on thyroid hormone. But generally, the people that have come to me are not the ones that are feeling amazing on thyroid hormone. If you're somebody that starts on thyroid hormone, and you're like, “I'm not feeling amazing. What is going on?” There's a good chance that's your adrenals that needs to be addressed.

[00:33:53] SCOTT: It sounds like we really want to look at things more holistically, this HPAT axis, if you will, that if we're thinking about supporting the thyroid, that it would be at least wise to have some understanding of that person's adrenal status, and potentially then make sure the adrenals are getting supported as well. You mentioned that in some cases, people start thyroid medication, they do better for a while and then get worse.

I did a fun podcast a while ago with Dr. Eric Balcavage and Dr. Kelly Halderman on their book called, The Thyroid Debacle where they go into that detail and much more as well, so people can refer back to that.

How often do you find people need pharmaceutical tools like Cortef, like Florinef, the hydrocortisone, to support their adrenals, versus being able to adequately support the adrenals with natural approaches, or as you refer to them in the book, the ABCs, the adaptogens, the B vitamins, and vitamin C?

[00:34:51] DR. WENTZ: In my experience with having about 3,500 people going through the adrenal transformation protocol when it was a program offered to my community, we would have about an 80% success rate within the four weeks of people feeling significantly better. What I do is I typically have the very specific protocol that breaks it down and makes it really easy for people to follow. They do that for four weeks, and then I give them some advanced tools and strategies during the fifth week, which I've placed in the back of the book. That go over, like, if you're still struggling with energy levels and fatigue, and if you're a woman and you're menstruating, then maybe we should look into testing your ferritin levels. Perhaps you have low iron, and that could be the reason for your fatigue, right?

I give them a lot of tools and resources to look into what might be driving – what might be additional reasons why they might be out of balance. Certainly, that may be a time to revisit doing adrenal saliva testing or doing some DUTCH testing and working with a practitioner. But in my experience, when people do the work, we do have such a high success rate of almost 80% across a lot of the different symptoms, and 92% for brain fog. I believe it's like 79% for depression.

But it's remarkable, because when I initially trained on adrenals, it was like you can use the hormones, and those can get people in balance within three months to two years. Or you can utilize, the more you can focus on lifestyle and rebalance the stress response, then you can get results quicker, and bounce back quicker. For some people, I think, obviously, if they have Addison's then they need the hormones. For other people, it might be one step on their healing journey to utilize the lifestyle, they might need to take additional steps.

[00:36:52] SCOTT: It is pretty remarkable to use your word that any protocol could improve symptoms in 80% of people in four weeks. Congratulations on that. Because it is – I don't know many other protocols that are that amazingly successful.

When might you look to some of the hormones like DHEA or pregnenolone to support the adrenals? What are the pros and cons of more direct hormone replacement, versus some of the other things we've talked about? In someone with low DHEA, for example, does supporting the adrenals with your ABCs, and some of the other things we're going to talk about without DHEA supplementation exogenously. Does that lead to an increase in the production of DHEA over time?

[00:37:38] DR. WENTZ: Yes. Absolutely. When I have worked with people in utilizing hormones for them, I would do this based on a cortisol test. Either a saliva cortisol test or the DUTCH test. I would get a really good idea of what their cortisol output was for the day, what their DHEA was like, what their curve looked like. Then, I would develop a very specific protocol for them based on, okay, if you have low cortisol in the morning, we would use these many drops of pregnenolone. Depending on where your DHEA was, we would use these many drops of DHEA. We would do that on a circadian fashion. So, doing it three times a day generally.

Then, I would also have, okay, let's say you struggle with low morning cortisol, I could give you some licorice drops to raise your cortisol levels there. If you have too much cortisol at night, we can utilize something like phosphatidylserine within a short time period, as long as your overall cortisol wasn't low, to help bring down some of that high cortisol, to allow you to fall back and sleep at night. We can utilize this for these patterns for three months, sometimes up to two years to really do it that way.

I personally have had some situations myself where I had a practitioner give me a really high dose of pregnenolone, which probably 20 times the dose that I would give people, and that caused me to have water retention, and a lot of pain in my body because that can over convert. Aldosterone, which can cause water retention if we have too much of it. I don't want people doing it by themselves. I want them to work with a very knowledgeable practitioner and use a very accurate cortisol test, either the DUTCH test or the ZRT test.

Then, I feel like there's a time and place for that. The challenges that I have had with clients is in some cases, if women are estrogen dominant, DHEA can over convert to estrogen. Men as well, unfortunately. We wish that it would just raise the right thing that is missing. But sometimes if your pathways are geared to producing more of one thing, then utilizing just that hormone can actually – it can over convert to something else. Then, women who have had estrogen sensitive cancer, or a family history of that, like, I wouldn't want to use DHEA with them. Sometimes, with a pregnenolone, you would hope that it would convert to cortisol, but maybe it might convert to that aldosterone. Then, there are things like some woman may over convert DHEA to something that causes acne and chin hair, and that's never fun.

Those are some of the challenges that I have had with utilizing those, and some of my clients in other countries, they can't readily order those kinds of supplements, because they might be prescription. Definitely, if you're an Olympic athlete, you probably can't use them because they are going to be on the list of things not to use. But there are modalities utilizing, for example, some of the adaptogenic herbs. Reishi, this can help raise your DHEA levels naturally, and so that can be very helpful, as well as getting really good sleep. Sleep can help you raise your DHEA levels, and really aligning with the circadian rhythm that could raise your cortisol levels naturally. Stepping outside first thing in the morning.

I feel like I almost owe it to people to like, give them a really solid lifestyle plan before we start messing with hormones. I'm a pharmacist. I love drugs. I love hormones. I think there's a time and place for everything. But at the same time, I'm like, if there are lifestyle things that can do that without side effects, and they're fun and pleasurable, like spending time outside in nature. Most people feel better with this, and that can actually help rebalance your – that can help you get aligned with cortisol really well, with your cortisol curve throughout the day.

[00:42:10] SCOTT: When we look at some of the sex hormones like estrogen, testosterone, some people talk about this concept of the Pregnenolone Steal where pregnenolone is shunted to create cortisol, not enough then remains to support sex hormone production. The whole concept of pregnenolone steal, I know is debated. So, I'm wondering do you resonate with it? Does supporting the adrenals then lead to balancing of estrogen and testosterone without more direct hormone replacement support?

[00:42:42] DR. WENTZ: I'm still debating, internally, the Pregnenolone Steal whether that is accurate or not. I can't see inside of the body of what's actually happening. But the theory is that essentially, when you are in that stressed out state, that your body will prioritize making cortisol from pregnenolone, our mother hormone, rather than making our sex hormones like progesterone and estrogen. I will say that clinically, I don't know what's going on the on the back end. But clinically, people do tend to have lower progesterone when they are in that adrenal dysfunction state, and that can contribute to hormonal imbalances.

When we think about what our adrenals produce, they actually do produce DHEA, and they actually do produce sex hormones. This can be very relevant for women in perimenopause and menopause, where if we properly support their adrenal glands, then perhaps, their hormone function may improve. I know I have seen it clinically, where we would just focus on those strategies. But there's also other tools. I mean, if you are post menopause and perimenopause, you may actually need to utilize some of the downstream hormones such as progesterone because your ovaries maybe aren't producing as much and your adrenals can't compensate enough.

I think, there is definitely in younger women, I would say, under perimenopause age and younger men this is going to be more relevant, but it's not going to replace the women's hormones that are post menopause, or even in perimenopause. You still need to really work on your adrenals. You need to really focus on your adrenals at that time, but you may also need to support your sex hormones, too.

[00:44:38] SCOTT: You alluded to caffeine earlier in the conversation, maybe not being something that has to be completely eliminated in your new adrenal transformation protocol. Talk to us about that. Should we still attempt to limit it later in the day to avoid impacting our sleep, potentially? I personally try to avoid caffeine after noon. Is reliance on caffeine a cause of adrenal dysfunction or dysregulation, or a symptom of that condition?

[00:45:07] DR. WENTZ: I used to think that it was primarily a cause. I think, in some cases, it definitely can be. If you're drinking too much caffeine, that could interfere with your sleep at night, right? So, you're not going to be getting refreshing sleep, you're going to be blocking your tiredness receptors, and you're going to be waking up all throughout the night. If you're drinking caffeine too early in the morning, that can potentially suppress your body's natural cortisol production, because your body is always – it’s like a feedback mechanism, right? If you already have enough cortisol, your body's like, “We're good. We don't need to make our own.”

That can be potentially – potentially, it can be an issue. I used to tell people, “Okay, you have to quit caffeine for 30 days to heal your adrenals.” I will say, people were not very happy with me, as you can imagine. Then, some of my clients where I was like, “Oh, you're waking up a lot at night, and you're tired throughout the day, and you're anxious. I think I know what's going on. I think it's because of the caffeine. You're drinking six cups of coffee a day. Let's cut that down to zero.” They would be like, “Okay, I'm not drinking any caffeine. I'm on decaf now. But I'm still waking up at night, and I'm still tired, and I'm still anxious, and I've lost my will to live.”

Some people, I feel like when you are in this adrenal dysfunction state, that coffee dependency is very, very real. Because your coffee is mimicking what your cortisol would normally do, where it raises your cortisol in the morning to the levels of a healthy human. Then, another tangent is some people will require like wine or something in the evenings to actually bring down their cortisol, because they may disaligned with the circadian rhythm. That could be a whole pattern, where I used to think it was like, you're addicted to wine, or I used to think it was like, your problems are caused by your wine and coffee addiction. Now, I'm like, “Ah, you have adrenal dysfunction and that's causing you to self-medicate with these things.”

What I do now is I really focus on aligning with the circadian rhythm, some of the light therapy, and I help people build energy in their bodies, before I mention anything about caffeine. Because we really want to help you feel good and less dependent on caffeine, before I say anything about quitting it. Generally, the first few weeks of the program, people are allowed to do whatever with caffeine, whatever they want to. I will provide gentle nudges. So, maybe you could move your caffeine a little insy, bit later in the morning. If you're crawling to your coffee machine from bed, maybe give it – like step outside and have a smoothie first that's going to support healthy cortisol levels, and then do your caffeine. See how you do.

Then, you're drinking caffeine later in the evenings, perhaps that's interfering with your sleep. Maybe we can bring it a little bit earlier. I know when I was like in my 20s or 30s, I can drink caffeine anytime and I would be able to sleep. Now that I'm 40, it's like, if I drink it at 2:59, I'm okay. If I drink it at 3:01, I will not sleep for like that whole entire night. Sometimes it's just drinking that window of caffeine to let your body align with the circadian rhythm a bit better. Then, I'll recommend like a reduction when people are ready and we do it 25% at a time. We might do some dandelion to help support our liver. Just to ease off of it gently. But yes, you do not have to quit coffee entirely or caffeine to heal your adrenals in most cases.

[00:49:01] SCOTT: That's good news for people listening that we're about to stop listening to our conversation, that she's not requiring you to stop your coffee in order to heal your adrenals.

In the different stages of adrenal dysfunction, in the book, you talk about how it starts with a high cortisol stage, then there's a dysregulated cortisol stage, and eventually a low cortisol stage. When we see an inverted pattern, where we have high cortisol at night and low cortisol in the morning, what does that tell you? I've heard some practitioners suggest that that could be an indication of parasites. What do you think of as causes for an inverted cortisol pattern? How do you address that?

[00:49:43] DR. WENTZ: This is the night owl pattern. You are somebody that is going to be more. I have heard the various things, like if you have parasites, you might have high cortisol in the morning, and that causes you to jump out of bed. I've also heard or the reverse of, if you have a low cortisol in the morning, that could be a parasite situation. I'm not fully sure. I haven't correlated the GI map tests with the adrenal tests. But that's going to be an interesting study. I might actually do that. Thank you for that idea.

But my impression is that it's people that are not aligned with the circadian rhythm, so they could actually be, what I call – there's a really interesting study, a deep dive, I did on it, where they're more aligned with the moon, rather than being aligned with the sun. They do tend to have more symptoms around the full moon, where they have harder time sleeping, which can also be a parasite thing, right? Because parasites tend to be more active when we have more serotonin, which happens around the full moon, rather than melatonin.

I think it could all be connected. But the general process of how I restore that is really focusing on the light therapy throughout the day. First thing in the morning, we focus on bright lights, and bright light exposure. Then, after sunset, we really try to limit our exposure to artificial lighting. That can help to realign that naturally.

Part of my protocol, I also have Saccharomyces boulardii, which is a natural anti-protozoal and anti-fungal and anti a lot of things. It's a beneficial yeast that helps to raise our secretory IgA levels, and that can help overcome some parasitic infections naturally, including Blastocystis hominis, which is one of the more common ones I've seen in Hashimoto’s. That does help people sleep better at nights. Potentially, it could be because of the whole parasite connection.

This is something that I'm very interested about. Because as you might know, a lot of the tests for parasites they're not super accurate. I used to do a bio health lab test, and I think I had about 30% of people with Hashimoto’s testing positive for Blastocystis hominis. Now, I use the GI map, which I love. But I don't think it's more than 10% to 15% of positive to just now get on that.

[00:52:24] SCOTT: My favorite test for parasites is ParaWellness Research here in Colorado with Dr. Raphael d'Angelo, and I think he finds a very high percentage of parasites, but he himself is looking at stool and urine under the microscope. That's been tremendously helpful. But I agree with you. It's hard to do that correlation study when the likely incidence of parasites is significantly higher than how often we're able to find them with these labs. Can high cholesterol be a sign of adrenal dysfunction and could elevated cholesterol be an intelligent adaptation of the body to create more raw materials for the production of adrenal and other sex hormones? Maybe then, even, tie back into that concept of the pregnenolone steal that we talked about earlier?

[00:53:14] DR. WENTZ: Absolutely. Cholesterol is the precursor for pregnenolone. In my experience, I will find people, and it's widely known that people who have low thyroid hormone will have high cholesterol, and sometimes just giving them more thyroid hormone can help normalize their cholesterol levels. I think, the same holds true when the body senses that we need more cortisol. It's like, “Oh, we're under stress. Therefore, we need more pregnenolone to make cortisol.” I think, that could be a very intelligent adaptation, where the body will say, “Let's bring up the production of this.” Typically, you look at a person with high cholesterol, a lot of times they're not ones that are – they're not saying they're not stressed, right?

[00:54:06] SCOTT: How much do tools that support calming the body working with the vagus nerve, working with the limbic system, meditating, working with the autonomic nervous system? How often do these types of practices support recovery of the adrenals? How does the parasympathetic nervous system tie in with the adrenals? How important is feeling safe in the world to optimize adrenal function?

[00:54:32] DR. WENTZ: This is the pinnacle of my work; is my theory is that people have adrenal dysfunction and thyroid issues because they don't feel safe in the world, or safe in their bodies. To restore that balance, we talk a lot about nutrition, right? So, we're eating really good foods that are healthy for us. We talk about lifestyle changes, like getting plenty of rest. There's also a big mind, body component, so things like being kind to yourself, and also rewiring your stress response.

When we're always on that edge, we shift into our sympathetic system. We're more in that fight or flight, we're more in that really edgy. I'm just about to jump out of my seat. I'm so nervous. I'm ready to jump on this person. And that, we spent – obviously, we have to spend time in that system, and also our parasympathetic rest and digestive system. Most people spend time in both. Sometimes it can get out of balance, where you spend too much time in that edgy system, and so we don't have enough time to heal our bodies, to do the repair work, to properly rest, to properly digest.

Really, there's so many things I love about nutrition and supplements, but a lot of times, some of these things might be more mind, body, and therapy modalities. Whether that's limbic retraining. I personally love EMDR that helps you really rewire your thought patterns. I love neurofeedback that can help shift you into a more positive state. Some people love meditation, some people love breathwork. There's a beautiful, wide variety of these healing modalities. The biohackers, they might like neurofeedback. If you're really into yoga and living a Zen life, you might like chanting, and breathwork, and meditation. But I feel like that's a really critical component of that healing journey and really rewiring your brain and helping to reconnect that sensing of stress, that brain, and what our hormones are doing right, and to get more imbalanced. I feel like that's a really underappreciated part of healing.

[00:56:59] SCOTT: Totally agree. And fortunately, for those of us that are also biohackers, there's more and more devices coming around that also work with frequencies and vibration, and other cool things to be very chill and relax. It's a good time to bring some of these tools in.

You talk about four primary stressors impacting the adrenals. Inflammation, circadian rhythm imbalance, nutritional imbalance, and psychological stress. In the inflammation discussion, you talk about food sensitivities, leaky gut, dysbiosis, SIBO, parasites, viruses like Epstein-Barr virus, which is so common. You talk about yeast. You talk about environmental toxicity, such as mold exposure. What portion of your adrenal dysfunction clients have vector-borne infections or mold illness, would you speculate?

[00:57:50] DR. WENTZ: It would be challenging for me to speculate that without doing advanced testing with them. I would say, I would have to do a little bit more research with that. I know that we have people who have mold exposure that have gone through the program, and a lot of my understanding of Lyme and we have had people with Lyme disease as well. People, I feel like, when I started working with thyroid issues, I was like, “These are the things I need to focus on.” And then I was like, “Oh, wait. But sometimes Hashimoto’s can be triggered by mold.” Then, I had to learn about mold. Then, Hashimoto’s can be triggered by Lyme. I'm like, “Then, I have to learn about Lyme”, and all of these different triggers.

We'll have a variety of individuals with chronic Epstein-Barr virus and Lyme disease. In my experience, the adrenal support can work very – I've designed the program to be helpful for those individuals as well. Typically, if you are mold exposed, you're going to be more likely to have issues with Epstein-Barr virus reactivation, and you're not going to be able to properly control the Lyme disease.

One of the things that I utilize is Saccharomyces boulardii, which is that beneficial yeast. If you're living in a super moldy house, that won't do the trick. But that can help to carry out some of the mold out of your body and boost your resilience. It does support Secretory IgA levels in the gut which can help us overcome parasites naturally, which can help us clear out some mold and Candida. Then with Epstein-Barr virus, part of controlling it is actually supporting your adrenals. I do have high dose vitamin C and adaptogens. Those things can be very, very helpful. In my experience, people with mold exposure also tend to have carnitine deficiencies. When I've looked at you know organics acids tests, that's going to be a really big thing. I was like, “Wait carnitine and that can cut – it's been studied in thyroid fatigue and brain fog.”

I utilize carnitine as part of the program as well, which I feel is one of the reasons why 92% of people actually say they have less brain fog after four weeks. My mind makes all these connections and I’m – when I drew out the program, initially, I was like, what are the patterns and things I want to address knowing that people with Hashimoto’s, which has been my primary target population, within the first few launches of the adrenal program, and then we expanded it because people were like, bringing their friends without Hashimoto’s into it. But basically, I've designed it to go wide into helping people whether they have mold exposure, or Epstein-Barr virus or Lyme. Because I feel like a part of what you need to do when you have those conditions, is support your adrenals anyway, and I've tried to add some extras to be able to target a few of these things.

[01:01:09] SCOTT: Yeah, I wasn't going to ask this question, but you mentioned that EBV is often more of an issue when there is adrenal dysregulation. That leads me to wonder in people that are dealing with long COVID or chronic COVID, where we know EBV activation is so incredibly common. What portion of the long COVID population would you suggest might also be tied to adrenal dysfunction?

[01:01:35] DR. WENTZ: I've been studying long COVID for some time, and it's interesting because it seems like a lot of the things that we see in functional medicine tend to be present in long COVID, whether that's mold exposure, or that EBV reactivation. I think, I read one paper where there was like 60% to 80% of people, something crazy like that. Yes, the symptoms, they fall into that adrenal dysfunction, adrenal fatigue state. I feel anytime you have viruses that you cannot keep suppressed, that's going to be likely that you have some degree of adrenal dysfunction. I don't know if I could say the word COVID on a podcast or anything like that. But we have had a few people that have been helped with these protocols.

[01:02:22] SCOTT: You talk about the importance of sleep or circadian rhythm. How common is it for you to see low blood sugar while sleeping, leading to an increase in cortisol, which then is really an attempt to raise the blood sugar, and then that cortisol burst essentially impacting restorative sleep? Should those with adrenal dysfunction consider a continuous glucose monitor, so that we can explore the patterns of their blood sugar while they're sleeping?

[01:02:51] DR. WENTZ: Oh, my gosh, it's so interesting, because I find that there's a few different patterns of sleep issues. The one with cortisol – the one with blood sugar issues, it tends to be that around between 2 and 3am. You will wake up wired and hungry and it'll be like, “Why? What is going on?” Typically, for those people, when we first start working with them, I'll say like, “Keep a banana by your bed so that you can go back to sleep because your body is actually hungry, and you need something, and that banana is going to help you fall asleep.” But then we focus on eating for blood sugar balance, and so we add more protein, we add more fat we minimize some of the carbohydrates. We’ll utilize things like the carnitine, which can help people with utilizing fatty acids for fuel, and also myo- inositol to help with balancing blood sugar.

But I've love continuous glucose monitors. I think that can be incredibly helpful, because some people might find random things that can set off blood sugar spikes for them, or that might cause them to be hypoglycemic. I, being like a health enthusiast, biohacker, I was like, “Let me” – when I first got to CGM, I’m like, “Let's see what happens when I do this. Let's see what happens when I did that.” Turns out, if I drink wine, then I'll wake up – I'll have multiple bouts of hypoglycemia throughout the night. I feel like that's most people, but they don't realize it unless they see it on a CGM, and people think that I'm having wine, it's going to help me sleep better. It's like, “Yes, but you think so, because it's going to help you fall asleep initially, but then you might go hypoglycemic.”

Everybody that I know that has utilized one, it's been game changing for them. It's not a requirement to do as part of the program. But it can be incredibly helpful for people to really dial things in for themselves.

[01:04:45] SCOTT: Yes, I think we're both definitely a bit on the nerdy side that we both get excited about CGMs.

What are the most common nutrient deficiencies you find in those with adrenal issues?

[01:04:57] DR. WENTZ: Definitely, B vitamins, and vitamin C, and magnesium, and electrolytes. This is a really great place to start a solid protocol, where if you can get on some B vitamins, you're going to have a little bit more energy. You get on vitamin C, your immune system is going to be working better. You get on magnesium, and all of a sudden, your hormones are working better. You're going to sleep better at night, you're going to be less anxious. Then, electrolytes. A lot of people have been telling me, I thought I was hydrating properly, and turned out, I needed more electrolytes. Cramping in their body can improve. Energy levels can improve. Really, I feel like those are my four non-negotiables for most people, because a lot of these things really get burned throughout the stress response.

[01:05:49] SCOTT: You talk in the book about, from a nutritional macronutrient perspective that often times we need to have more fats, more proteins, less carbs. I think, that's another piece of the conversation around the adrenals. You talk about a number of interventions in your Adrenal Transformation Protocol that your trial participants found most impactful. Can you tell us a few of those?

[01:06:15] DR. WENTZ: Definitely, blood sugar balance is going to be really game changing for people where we focus on a paleo like diet, where we eliminate gluten, dairy, and soy which are common inflammatory foods. Generally, people with this stressed out state and adrenal dysfunction, they're not going to have enough digestive juice on board. They may be low in hydrochloric acid, and they're going to have a harder time digesting various proteins. Typically, the most challenging proteins to digest are going to be gluten, dairy, and soy.

We eliminate those because they can cause some inflammation, and we also get rid of grains, just because they can be associated with some blood sugar issues. People, I feel like I don't have to preach to the choir, but protein intake is so, so important for healing the body. When our body is in that stressed out state, it's breaking itself down to fuel the stress response. We need to work on – stress response is a catabolic process. We need to work on building the body back up, and the proteins are broken down into amino acids, which are our building blocks. Eating more protein can be very healing for us, for our hormones, for our bodies. I, typically, might recommend eating as much as, maybe a bodybuilder might eat for some people even, where they – when you think about it, you are like a bodybuilder when you are in this adrenal dysfunction state, because all of the things that you're doing are putting so much stress – your body's under so much stress that you need more protein to help you recover.

This is a big, big part of what people do throughout the program. It's incredible because some people are like, “I thought I was an anxious person. I thought I had anxiety issues. It turns out that I just needed to eat more protein and balance my blood sugar.”

[01:08:21] SCOTT: How are the adrenals related to dysautonomia or POTS, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome? Do you find that supporting the adrenals can address or help to address the symptoms of dysautonomia, and POTS?

[01:08:35] DR. WENTZ: I feel like they're branches on the same tree with similar root causes. Definitely, POTS can be a presentation of adrenal dysfunction where somebody stands up, and they get lightheaded, and they might have palpitations. I feel like doing a lot of the interventions in the program can also be helpful for POTS. Electrolytes very helpful for both conditions. I do find that people can be benefited from this. I know there's some controversy from POTS is more of a medical diagnosis these days, where people will say, “You were misdiagnosed – you didn't actually have adrenal dysfunction. You had POTS.” But I feel like POTS can definitely be a feature of adrenal dysfunction and a lot of the strategies can be helpful for it, as can utilizing benfotiamine, which is a type of thiamine, my preferred version of it, and that can be helpful for POTS, and sometimes for that fatigue that is unresolved in the low blood pressure.

[01:09:38] SCOTT: Yes, big fan of thiamine here as well. Did a podcast with Dr. Chandler Marrs. We talked about the different forms like benfotiamine, but also TTFD, which is another form that can be very helpful as well.

In the Adrenal Transformation Protocol or the ATP, as you mentioned, you talk about the different steps: replenish, reenergize, revitalize, rebuilding, resilience, and then reassessing. Moving forward in our last several minutes together, just going to touch on some of these, so people get a sense for what we can do in these different areas. In replenish, you talk about using nutrition to send safety signals to the body. How our nutrient density lowering inflammation with our diet, balancing blood sugar, how are those keys to sending safety signals to the body, to replenishing the system, and then building on that, high histamine foods in someone with something like mast cell activation syndrome, might those actually be more danger signals?

[01:10:40] DR. WENTZ: So much to unpack here. My theory is that whenever we put ourselves in a situation that our ancient genes would recognize as a threat, like a war or a famine, that can send us into that adrenal dysfunction state. For example, if you are skipping your meals and not eating enough calories, if you're eating foods that are inflammatory to you, if you are nutrient depleted, that's going to be sending a message to your body that you're in a famine, right?

What do we do when we're in a – what helps us survive a famine? I came across – Dr. Erica Pearson was telling a story about people who survived the Irish Potato Famine, that the survivors tended to have higher rates of hypothyroidism. So, hypothyroidism, and whether that comes from like a Hashimoto’s presentation, or an adrenal presentation that produces more reverse T3, this can actually be beneficial to survival if we're in a famine. Because holy cow, our metabolism slows, and we don't need as many calories to survive and what not, and we're more tired, so we're heading hiding out in our caves until the famine passes.

I did a deep dive on the thyroid patterns of hibernating bears. Typically, there's that are hibernating seems to have some thyroid alterations that I'm like, “Oh, maybe it's like a human hibernation process that happens when we're in a famine.” In our modern days, we're like, exercise more, eat less, and we're eating processed foods that don't look like anything close to what we were eating many, many thousands of years ago.

Really, for me, in my experience, is when you let your body know that food is plentiful, and you nourish your body properly, you can start feeling a lot better, and you can start shifting out of that state. I know, I've had some clients where they were restricting their calories. They were doing a lot of exercise in an effort to lose weight, and then I would look at their cortisol patterns, and I'd be like, “You have low cortisol today. I actually think you should stop exercising as much as you're doing, just maybe do some gentle yoga. I think you need to eat more calories and let your body know that food is plentiful.” They were like, “No, not doing it. I’m so scared.”

Then, within the course of the month, they'd be able to, like, “I lost weight.” We actually have about 80% of people do lose weight in the program. We do not restrict calories. We do not talk about doing more exercise. We're really focusing on nourishing you and giving you lots and lots of really good nutrient dense food and supplements, and letting your body know that food is plentiful, so it doesn't have to hold on to all the weight.

[01:13:36] SCOTT: It is funny because years ago, I think so many of us were into the like, “Oh, you need to eat low fat.” Then, we realized that's not healthy. I know my morning power shake. My mom asked me one day, “Well, how many calories are in that?” I said, “Probably 2,000.” Her job dropped, and I'm like, “But it's 2,000 really, really good safety signal calories.”

Do you find that those that have animal protein in their diet respond better to the program than vegans or vegetarians? Then, what's the role of retinol in supporting adrenal function?

[01:14:13] DR. WENTZ: Yes. One of the things I've noticed in people with hypothyroidism is typically people tend to have worse outcomes if they are on a vegan or vegetarian diet. I think, partially, that could be because some of the proteins they utilize are more difficult to digest. Some people are like pizzaterians, they're not healthy vegans or vegetarian. That of course, could play a role. But I also think the role of carnitine, one of the richest sources is in beef and red meats. I feel like carnitine can be a really, really big game changer for people, and that's one of the ingredients that I feel like you can't really get enough of on a plant-based diet, and some time because you do need to supplement even if you are eating red meat. That can be helpful for carrying out ammonia out of the body that can produce some of the brain fog and fatigue.

Then, vitamin A. We have vitamin A from carrots, right? Then, we have retinol. Some people, they can eat carrots and their body converts it to whatever vitamin A we need. Other people, like myself, I have a gene variation where I can't do that. I actually need to get retinol either from a supplement form or from animal foods. My body can't use carrots as well, as much as I love them. For a lot of individuals, this is very, very relevant.

Vitamin A is one of the nutrients that's needed to turn cholesterol into pregnenolone as well. I feel like for some people, this could be relevant. Of course, there's controversy about getting overdosed with vitamin A toxicity. We all have such unique genes and bodies. But I will say from a general standpoint, a lot of people tend to do better if they do introduce some meat into their diets, especially, anecdotally, red meat tends to be very helpful for a lot of people. I do try to meet people where they're at, and I know there are religious and ethical reasons where people may feel a certain dietary preference is going to be important to them.

In that case, if you're a vegan, make sure you're getting B12, and checking your iron levels, and potentially consider carnitine. Look into doing retinol. Maybe if you're a biohacker and a vegan, then maybe do some gene testing for yourself to see where you might need to dial things in. But I think it – I'm not going to say it's never possible, but I feel like it might take a little bit more work for people.

[01:16:59] SCOTT: Let's talk a little bit about adaptogens. Are these essentially modulators of the adrenals? Do we need to be concerned about using adaptogens if we're already in a high cortisol state? I know I'm a fan of ashwagandha and holy basil. What are a few of your favorites? Then, what are your thoughts on adrenal glandulars?

[01:17:18] DR. WENTZ: I love adaptogens. I always say adaptogens make everybody around us less annoying. They give us a little bit more resilience and ability to handle stress, so we could be exposed to the same exact amount of stress, but adaptogens just help us deal with it better.

There are a variety of different ones, most of them with the exception of licorice, which is considered an adaptogen, but it shouldn't be. Most of them will work whether you have high cortisol or low cortisol to balance it, so that you have a healthier cortisol pattern. I love utilizing them for that. Licorice, in particular, if you have high cortisol, and if you have high blood pressure, I don't recommend it. I would recommend it for people with low blood pressure and low cortisol. Some of my favorites, I mean, it's like picking a favorite child, right? It really just depends on what people are going through. If you are somebody that is looking for more support and the hormone and libido department, maybe some maca or shatavari. If you're struggling with anxiety, maybe some rhodiola, ashwagandha can help with that. I guess, if I had to pick, I love holy basil, because people can drink that as a tea, and that's really nice to introduce, and it's very, very gentle for most people.

Reishi is another one that I like to utilize. It's nice to have that, maybe sometime in the evening. It can give you a little bit more energy without keeping you awake at night. But a lot of the ones I like to use like rhodiola and reishi, they also have some mitochondrial benefits as well. I have a list of various ones that I have – for the average person, I would recommend doing like an A, B, C blend that has adaptogens, B vitamins, and vitamin C, so you could just take one thing. If you're somebody that's sensitive or particular, you're a nursing mom, or maybe you just have specific conditions, then you may wish to just choose one adaptogen at a time.

[01:19:33] SCOTT: I think we weren't going to talk about this, but I think you actually have formulated some products that people can access through your website as well. Correct?

[01:19:42] DR. WENTZ: Yes. I have Adrenal Support by Rootcology, and this is a nice blend. It does contain licorice, so it's for more of the people with low cortisol, and it has ashwagandha, and it has a few other adaptogens mixed in with some B vitamins and vitamin C. That's an option. For some people, others, they may wish just to take one. But it's a beautiful world of adaptogens.

I will say this, they're not going to give you a perfect life. You also have to do the other work. I know some people are like, “Oh, I'm just going to burn the bridge at both ends and keep taking adaptogens.” That's not my intention for people.

Adrenal glandulars can be helpful for some individuals, and they work to raise your cortisol levels. If you don't have enough adrenal hormones, you can take a glandular. Now, the challenge with it and some of – I've worked with a lot of people, and then I have a lot of readers that will write to me too, providing their feedback on some of my books and programs, or just their experiences in the world. I have this beautiful community and I have a lot of, I guess, data and information.

I have seen some people where they will take adrenal supplements that are derived from the whole adrenal gland, and they might actually get some adrenaline in the mix, and that does not feel good. They will say, “I took an adrenal glandular supplement, and oh, my goodness, I thought I needed to go to the emergency room, because I was having a panic attack.” I always caution about that. You want to make sure that they're not from the full gland extracts. Be very mindful of where you're getting your extracts from.

The other thing that has happened in some of my clients, and this can also happen, even with low dose hydrocortisone, or some of the things, is they can actually cause up pituitary suppression, where your body, if you take them, and especially if you take them in the evenings, it can suppress that feedback loop from your body where your body doesn't make its own. You become dependent on it. Those are some of the challenges that I have seen with them. As a pharmacist, I'm always like, “What are the risks?” I always want to be mindful about that. For some people, they can work really well. I definitely recommend working with a practitioner that's really well versed in using them, and being mindful of your dosing. Because if you're overdosing yourself, that could lead to that pituitary suppression.

[01:22:27] SCOTT: Yes, and my understanding with some of the glandulars, too, is maybe there's something to be used earlier, and for a shorter period of time, where the adaptogens we can use for a much longer period of time. Would you say that that's a reasonable thought as well?

[01:22:41] DR. WENTZ: Yes, absolutely. To your point, I would want to make sure that you are testing your adrenals before using the glandulars, because if you have too much cortisol, then you wouldn't want to use the glandulars. Whereas the adaptogens and the lifestyle changes, most of them, with some of the exceptions like the licorice or too much salt, they're going to be safe for most people, whether they have high cortisol or low cortisol.

[01:23:08] SCOTT: The next piece you talk about in the book, reenergize, consists of hydration, mitochondrial support, the circadian rhythm reset. You suggest adding electrolytes or sea salt to water. Another tool you discuss in the book is Sole, which I have used in the past and prepared a little bit of a process. That can be fun as well. Talk to us about Sole and why it might be helpful in supporting the adrenals. Are there times when more salt may not be ideal?

[01:23:35] DR. WENTZ: People with that low cortisol pattern, they tend to crave salt. Our adrenals also produce aldosterone which helps to keep our fluid in our bodies. Then, when we're salt deficient, we can become dehydrated. Cravings of salts are actually one of the symptoms like – I call it the, I just ate a whole bag of chips syndrome. Generally, we want to get more sea salt into our diet that can be balancing.

People with adrenal dysfunction with that low cortisol pattern, they tend to have low blood pressure, low blood sugar, or they tend to go hypoglycemic, not all-day low blood sugar, and then they might have low cortisol. Sometimes utilizing extra sea salt throughout the day, and whether that's in a drink like the Sole or adding it to your food, or adding it to a smoothie, this can be a great way to actually provide some feedback to your body. I typically like to do it first thing in the morning. It's like this beautiful feedback system. If you help to increase your blood pressure, then your cortisol will increase, and then help to increase your blood glucose, and your cortisol will increase. If you help to increase your cortisol with bright light exposure, it's like this beautiful feedback loop system. It’s like, “Time to be awake and have energy.”

[01:25:00] SCOTT: In the revitalized portion of the book, you talk about positive thought patterns, pleasurable activities, creating just because. You talk about ways to increase oxytocin. How can we increase oxytocin? And is there a potential place for supplemental oxytocin such as in a nasal spray?

[01:25:20] DR. WENTZ: Oh, my gosh, I love nasal oxytocin. It's so much fun. I think that can be a really cool tool for social anxiety, and connecting with people, and going to crowds of big parties. Some people do utilize that, and typically, you would get a prescription from your doctor for that. There might be some websites out there selling it. I'm not sure that I would endorse it. But in general, you can also raise your oxytocin levels naturally. Things like physical touch. These can be incredibly helpful, whether that's being with a loved one, making love, hugging somebody, petting a cat or a dog.

Also, when I was doing a deep dive into some of the research, I found a shocking percentage of men in the UK actually have teddy bears that they travel with to hotels, and there's like this whole thing about getting those teddy bears that were left in hotels back to their owners. But even a stuffed animal can bring some comfort to people. Some people, they're more on the biohacking, and you might do something like a weighted blanket. All of these can be helpful for raising oxytocin.

Anything that warms up your body can be helpful too. Sitting in a sauna or taking a hot bath, certain essential oils, lavender and clary sage, those are some options to raise your oxytocin, and definitely something for everybody. You don't have to have a partner to benefit your oxytocin. It'd be great if you had a pet, but you don't even need a pet. You can get a stuffed animal or a teddy bear, right?

[01:27:09] SCOTT: I had Dr. Jill Carnahan on the podcast, and in her book, she talks about coloring. You also talk about coloring as a way to really balance the nervous system. Maybe we'll have our coloring sessions with our teddy bears or something along those lines.

In rebuilding resilience, you talk about movement, breath, healthy coping strategies, letting go of heaviness, and reclaiming your space. You also talk about catabolic versus anabolic exercise, and what types of exercise are more ideal for those with adrenal dysregulation. Talk to us about, maybe, a couple of the more ideal types of exercise. And can the wrong exercise make our adrenal problems worse?

[01:27:52] DR. WENTZ: Yes. Typically, what I've seen in people with that low cortisol pattern is, they might feel worse when they're doing some more aerobic exercise. Running or step aerobics, if you will, or it's some of the more high intensity things. You generally have to be in a healthier state to benefit from those exercises. So, the more of what you may want to focus on to balance that, is going to be more anabolic exercises and stress reducing exercises. Things like yoga, tai chi, walking, being in nature. These are some very gentle things that a lot of people can tolerate. Then, things like Pilates or weightlifting, these can help you – part of what's happening with this adrenal dysfunction state, a lot of it is, people feel a lot of the mental symptoms like anxiety and the brain fog. Also, also there's muscle fatigue, and there's some muscle wasting that can happen.

This makes sense, because when we're in that catabolic process, the body's breaking itself down for fuel. Part of recovering from the stress state is shifting back into that anabolic state and being more of a bodybuilder. DHEA is actually an anabolic hormone that's made by our adrenals. When that can become depleted, we may not be able to put on muscle as easily. We may have some of that muscle wasting. Part of building that back up, and those DHEA levels, and those healthy hormones, and lifting weights. I'm doing things that help you build your body back up. Think like Arnold, more weight lifting.

[01:29:43] SCOTT: You then have a fantastic review chapter in the book that puts everything together in example protocols. You then move in to reassess and move forward. What does the protocol look like for most people longer term? Does it end? Are there some aspects of the protocol that should be indefinite? Might the duration depend on whether or not some of the root causes have also been addressed, such as maybe, a mold exposure or chronic infections. Talk to us about longer term, what this ATP process looks like.

[01:30:14] DR. WENTZ: A lot of times, people will find that they love a lot of the daily habits, and they want to continue with them. Part of what I focus on is adding pleasurable activities to your day. I feel like everybody should continue that for the rest of their lives. Find your joie de vivre and keep it in there with you for as long as you possibly can. Some of the supplements are going to be generally every three months to two years, is what I would recommend utilizing them for. Some of the deeper work that I talk about, so maybe overcoming trauma and addressing the things that weigh you down and setting boundaries. This might be a lifelong thing that people may need to do. If you have a lot of trauma in your life, it's not going to be one magic session that's going to help you with that. That might be more of a long-term plan for people.

The blood sugar balance, I feel like once people start eating more of the protein, and they figure out how to nourish themselves naturally and sustainably, a lot of times for people the habit sticks with them. Some of them do introduce other foods back. I will say, with Hashimoto’s that I haven't figured out how to get gluten back into people's diets. I have been working with getting eggs back and grains back, and a lot of different things once we address some of the gut issues, and some of the nutritional deficiencies. Some people may need to stay off certain foods long term, whether that's dairy, or gluten, or soy, or grains. But generally, people find that they do stick with this diet for the most part to feel their best.

Honestly, the healing journey for some people, it can stop at four weeks, and they're like, they've reached all of their goals. For other people, it might be one step of their journey. If they're still – I think, mold is a great example. If you're still living in a moldy house, the Adrenal Transmission Protocol will give you some energy back. It'll give you some clarity, taking away some of that brain fog. It'll give you a bit more strength to perhaps work on figuring out your next steps.

I do have a section about testing, and I do have a section about, if you're still struggling with this symptom, here's some potential root causes. Here's some tests to consider. Here's some protocols that might help. Blood pressure issues, people, a lot of time has to go through the program, and they may resolve. But sometimes they might need benfotiamine 600 milligrams of that, or so, can restore healthy blood pressure levels. I have some more advanced protocols for people if they have high prolactin that causes them to be anxious and causes hormonal issues, they might benefit from B6 or P5P.

[01:33:16] SCOTT: Pantethine or vitamin B5 is commonly discussed for adrenal support. Which B vitamins do you find are more important when it comes to the adrenals? Is it more pantethine or do we really need a broader spectrum of B vitamins?

[01:33:30] DR. WENTZ: I think pantethine is the one that's most widely studied and it's important to consider. I do have that as part of my ABC blend. If people don't choose to utilize a blend, I would recommend doing a B complex that contains pantethine. You got a lot more that's within a typical B vitamin, to really support the adrenal glands.

Generally, for the four weeks, I will have people on a B complex or a blend of B vitamins. If they still have symptoms after the four weeks, talking about like B12 testing, because sometimes that can be low and that could cause fatigue, that's going to be a blood test. I'm talking about potentially, testing for MTHFR and incorporating some folate. Some people with dream recall or pyroluria, they may benefit from something like P5P, and then the thiamine if you have a lot of fatigue. Then, myo-inositol is another – it used to be considered a B vitamin, but we found out that our body can make it, and this can be incredibly helpful for anxiety, blood sugar issues. It can help normalize thyroid function in some early stages of Hashimoto’s as well.

[01:34:47] SCOTT: I love that you mentioned KPU or kryptopyrroluria in the book as well. That was something I learned about originally from Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, who has been my primary mentor, and he and I actually wrote an article on that condition, and it is something that can be very important for people to look at.

You talked about ammonia earlier as being created in the body and creating issues with sleep, potentially, contributing then to adrenal issues. In those with high ammonia, do you find that the vast majority of that is being driven by infections in the gut, or genetics, or eating too much protein? How do you approach that elevated ammonia scenario?

[01:35:24] DR. WENTZ: In my experience, it could be the CBS gene mutation. It could be protein issues, so trouble digesting protein, whether that's because you're eating too much or you have low hydrochloric acid. It could be from an H. pylori infection. So, H. pylori is a really potent producer of ammonia, and other types of gut infections can play a role in that as well, including some parasitic infections. It is something that is – and people who are constipated, right? That they're going to be producing more ammonia as well.

It is something that I feel like they might need a multifaceted approach, if you are somebody that has this issue. But typically, the symptoms are going to be brain fog, fatigue, muscle wasting, and frequent night wakings. That's actually a sign of it. The protocol is tailored to ammonia toxicity. So, I use magnesium citrate as part of the protocol. It does help restore magnesium levels. It also tends to promote bowel movements, which is generally helpful for most people with hypothyroidism. Some people who tend to be more with the diarrhea type, they may wish to use like a magnesium glycinate. But you do want to make sure that you are B6 sufficient, otherwise, that can over-convert to glutamate. So, magnesium citrate.

Saccharomyces boulardii minimizes the infections. We utilize some smoothies to help with breaking down protein a bit easier. Then, carnitine actually helps to carry ammonia out of the body. Ammonia is like a really intense mitochondrial toxin as well. For people who don't get better with this, I might also recommend something like ornithine, which helps to clear ammonia out of the body. That's like the advanced section. But I didn't want to put people on 75 supplements in the four weeks and; have them do a bunch of testing. I just wanted them to have a plan based on symptoms on what they could do.

[01:37:37] SCOTT: That's excellent. One of the things I loved in the book is you give so many different examples, including brands of specific supplements and nutraceuticals. Some that you formulated, but also others like Pure Encapsulations, and things like that, that's really helpful as a resource. The last topic that I wanted to touch on before our final question is, you talk about copper toxicity as a potential stressor on the body. I’m wondering how commonly you see copper toxicity as compared to copper deficiency? And how often you find iron toxicity playing a role when it comes to adrenal dysregulation?

[01:38:13] DR. WENTZ: I have I have a personal bias on copper and iron. I will just put that out there. I have one of the Wilson's genes, so I tend to be a copper accumulator. in my experience, that tends to be – maybe it's attract what you have, right? I do tend to think it can be more common in people who present with symptoms like anxiety, so in that adrenal dysfunction, and people with Hashimoto’s, who tend to have low levels of zinc and alkaline phosphatase. Typically, copper and zinc balance themselves out. Typically, low alkaline phosphatase can be a marker of low zinc status. This is more common in people with hypothyroidism.

I do feel like copper toxicity is actually a more relevant issue than copper deficiency in people with hypothyroidism, specifically. In the general population, it might be different. But for me, I'm never recommending that people just take copper when they have a thyroid issue. Generally, I might recommend that they take a zinc supplement if their alkaline phosphatase is low. Typically, in my experience, most people have low levels of that alkaline phosphatase.

The iron situation in most of the people that I've worked with, they tend to be low in ferritin. Most of the hypothyroid individuals, and I will say most of the people I work with are women. Probably, 90% of the people I've worked with tend to be women. Thyroid issues are more common in women and HPA axis dysfunction is more common. Things that are also more common in women are menstruation and childbirth, right? These are ways that we can lose blood. I predominantly will see people with low ferritin levels.

I will say my husband had hemochromatosis. For the people that have – I'm never telling people to supplement with iron. I'm always saying make sure you test your levels full. Don't just supplement with copper and don't just supplement with iron. You can do a test like ferritin and see where your levels are at. Generally, iron toxicity tends to be more common in men and/or women who are no longer menstruating, or people with some of the genetic variations like the three different types of hemochromatosis, or type four hemochromatosis, which is the ferroportin gene deficiency.

I try not to make it so complicated in the book. I promise you guys. But there's a lot of thought that goes into why I say test this and don't test that.

[01:41:06] SCOTT: It's ironic, my last podcast was with Dr. Christy Sutton. It's called The Iron Curse. She had iron deficient anemia, as I recall. But her husband also had hemochromatosis. That's a whole another complex area, the whole iron dysregulation.

My last question is the same for every guest, and that is what are some of the key things you do on a daily basis in support of your own health?

[01:41:33] DR. WENTZ: Well, I will usually drink and adrenal kickstart drink. That has about a half a cup of – or quarter of a cup of orange juice, and then I'll put protein powder, vanilla flavored hydrolyzed beef protein powder. I'll add some coconut milk and then some electrolytes to that. I usually like to start my day that way. I try to spend as much time as I can in nature. I am huge on hiking, going to the beach, going for walks, even just going outside first thing in the morning, and just getting some sunshine in my eyes. This is a big part of what I do. I get a lot of oxytocin, because I have a wonderful husband, and a five-year-old that I get to hug all the time. He still lets me hug him and kiss him and cuddle with him. Those are probably the most important things that I do for my own health other than taking an Epsom salt bath every single day too.

[01:42:31] SCOTT: Wow. Excellent. I love those too. I don't do every single day, but you raised the bar, for sure. The adrenal kickstart recipe that she mentioned is in the book. Definitely, recommend getting a copy of the book. This has been such a great conversation, so informative. You are a wealth of knowledge. I've known of your work for several years. This is the first time we've had the opportunity to connect one on one. It was such a gift and a blessing for me. I just want to thank you so much, Dr. Wentz, for putting this amazing book together, The Adrenal Transformation Protocol, and for doing all of the work that you do. You are amazing.

[01:43:07] DR. WENTZ: Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much, Scott. I really appreciate you having me on. I really appreciate all the work that you're doing and helping raise awareness on all of these things that people may not realize can be changed and improved.


[01:43:20] SCOTT: To learn more about today's guest, visit ThyroidPharmacist.com. That's ThyroidPharmacist.com. ThyroidPharmacist.com.


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