Why You Should Listen

In this episode, you will learn about the components of the Ellen Cutler Method including detoxification, enzymes, and desensitization. 

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About My Guest

My guest for this episode is Dr. Ellen Cutler.  Ellen Cutler, DC is a bestselling author and an internationally recognized teacher, public speaker, and media spokesperson.  Her books include "Micro Miracles — Discover the Healing Power of Enzymes," coming soon in a revised, expanded edition.  She has a chiropractic degree and specializes in the use of desensitization of food and other sensitivities, gentle detoxification, and enzyme and nutritional therapies for chronic conditions that have perplexed the conventional medical establishment. This is all addressed in her revolutionary healing technique the Ellen Cutler Method (ECM).

Key Takeaways

  • What are the components of the Ellen Cutler Method?
  • What is the role of organ-specific drainage?
  • How does the nervous system impact our ability to detoxify?
  • Might exposure to EMFs impact our detoxification ability?
  • What is the connection between environmental toxicants and being overweight?
  • How might digestive enzymes reduce food sensitivities?
  • Can digestive enzymes maximize the potential of our supplement protocols?
  • Is there a role for proteolytic or fibrinolytic enzymes in optimizing health?
  • What factors lead to becoming sensitized?
  • What is the process of desensitization?
  • Can people react to the frequency or energetics of a substance?
  • Can desensitization to our supplements potentially improve their effectiveness?
  • Is it possible to desensitize one to microbes within the body?
  • Is there a place for desensitization in the mold and mycotoxin landscape?

Connect With My Guest


Interview Date

November 2, 2023


Transcript Disclaimer: Transcripts are intended to provide optimized access to information contained in the podcast.  They are not a full replacement for the discussion.  Timestamps are provided to facilitate finding portions of the conversation.  Errors and omissions may be present as the transcript is not created by someone familiar with the topics being discussed.  Please Contact Me with any corrections.  


[0:00:01] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to BetterHealthGuy Blogcasts, empowering your better health. Now, here's Scott, your BetterHealthGuy.


[0:00:15] ANNOUNCER: The content of this show is for informational purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any illness or medical condition. Nothing in today's discussion is meant to serve as medical advice or as information to facilitate self-treatment. As always, please discuss any potential health-related decisions with your own personal medical authority.


[0:00:35] SCOTT: Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode 191 of the BetterHealthGuy Blogcast series. Today's guest is Dr. Ellen Cutler, and the topic of the show is the Ellen Cutler Method. Dr. Ellen Cutler is a best-selling author and an internationally recognized teacher, public speaker, and media spokesperson. Her books include Micro Miracles: Discover the Healing Power of Enzymes, coming soon in a revised expanded edition. She has a chiropractic degree and specializes in the use of desensitization of food and other sensitivities, gentle detoxification, and enzyme and nutritional therapies for chronic conditions that have perplexed the conventional medical establishment. This is all addressed in her revolutionary healing technique, the Ellen Cutler Method, available at the website, DrEllenCutler.com. And now, my interview with Dr. Ellen Cutler.


[0:01:34] SCOTT: Way back in the day in 2005, I found an acupuncturist who was using a system of energetic desensitization. She incorporated many of the concepts that we'll be talking about today, and that was so key in my own health, journey, and recovery. That was how I first learned of Dr. Cutler's work in 2005, and I'm very excited today to have her on the show to talk more about the Ellen Cutler Method. Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Cutler.

[0:02:02] DR. ELLEN: It's great to be with you. I know, I've heard about you, so it's great to connect today. I'm happy to be here.

[0:02:10] SCOTT: Thank you. What drove you to do the work you do today? Did you have a personal health journey that led to your passion and ultimately, the creation of your Ellen Cutler Method?

[0:02:22] DR. ELLEN: Yes. I write about this. It's in all my books. I always had digestive problems, Scott, even when I was younger. I remember being bloated and having issues, and I can never really talk to my parents about it. It was just not something we talked about, because it wasn't a life-threatening kind of thing. But it got worse. One of the things that happened in my household is every dinner table, my parents fought. I have a twin brother, and I know he had digestive problems as well. My father would walk out, and my mother would cry. It probably wasn't every night, but I remember how many times that occurred.

I believe that was probably some of the issues that caused some of the trouble that I had with my GI problems. Anyway, as it got worse, then I went to chiropractic school. I wanted to go to medical school, but my parents could only pay for one child. The boy, of course, was the one who got the medical. I had to support myself to go to chiropractic school. I was also leaned more into that, because it was more natural medicine. I wasn't really into the chiropractic, as much as nutrition and natural health care.

I had to work, and I went to school. During that time, those four years, everything got much, much worse. I actually went and got evaluated, and I was diagnosed with either colitis or ulcerative colitis. Ulcerative colitis is autoimmune. If anyone doesn't know, it's an inflammation of the colon, which is exactly what I was feeling.

The only answer, the only remedies was doing steroids and maybe having surgery later on, and I was percentage getting cancer. All that was given to me. Here, I'm in a natural health care profession. After I've been dedicated to healing, dedicated to study for my life, it feels like, this is my gift to my life. After that, I did a postgraduate three-year course in orthopedics. One of the doctors there, who I became very close to, became my mentor, knew what I was going to, because it got really bad. I basically only eat one food a day. I lived on grapes, and that was it. I couldn't eat anything else.

I was fatigued, and here I had to work at night. I went to school, I work at night, and then I have to study, so I really didn't get much sleep. I managed to try to exercise, and I couldn't eat much at all. He said, “Did you ever hear of a digestive enzyme?” At that time, we're talking many 40-something years ago, nobody. Wasn't on the radar at all. Nobody knew what a digestive enzyme. He said, “You are carbohydrate intolerant, which you basically don't process carbohydrates.” I've always been a vegetarian. Now, I'm a total vegan. But I always, I ate a lot of carbs, and it fermented, and I got bloated and had all my issues.

I started a full-spectrum digestive enzyme that did have all the enzymes for digesting carbs and sugars. Literally, within two weeks, never had a problem again. It was a miracle. That's why my book is Micro Miracles: Discover the Healing Power of Enzymes. I had to write that book. It just came out an updated version, by the way. In practice, I decided to give all my patients. I didn't care if they came in with a headache, or an ankle sprain, or a low back pain. I gave them a full-spectrum digestive enzymes, and I saw miracles in my life, and I saw miracles in them.

As you probably know, most people do have digestive issues, and don't know if they live with it their whole life, and they don't know. If you have to go to work, and your gut doesn't feel good, it is hard to work, really. I mean, if you have other pains, but the gut is essential in the center. You can't take your attention off of it. I saw miracles. My hair, skin nails, the fatigue, hormonal imbalance, my immune system was stronger, and it was changed my life, and I've been passionate about that.

There were still some people that still had symptoms after that. There were still some food sensitivities. That's how I then looked for ways of clearing sensitivities, or allergies. But allergies are the more severe type of reactions. Sensitivities can cause all kinds of different symptoms. People aren't aware of it. From headaches, to GI problems, to bowel problems and eczema and fatigue, all kinds of the various different problems. That's how my ECM was developed. It was first BioSET, which you heard about. Then now, it's in a really more advanced really, I have put so much work into it and it's energetic system, but it really gets to the core of what's going on. We can talk more about it, but that's how it all developed. I just never kept giving up. I just wanted to find, what else? What else? As you know, food sensitivities are the number one thing to look at for people. What's at the end of your fork is most important.

[0:08:19] SCOTT: The key components of your Ellen Cutler Method are detoxification, drainage, enzymes, as we just alluded to, desensitization. We're going to dig into each of those areas in more detail. First, talk to us about how you use this method to explore the underlying root causes of each person's condition. Are there some common themes that you've observed over the years in terms of the things that keep us chronically ill and hold us back from a return to optimal health?

[0:08:51] DR. ELLEN: Yes, great question. Well, I liked what you said. The reason that this method works so successfully and why I'm dedicated to it; it gets to the root of what's going on. As you probably know in your work, and what I do is you don't treat the disease. Treat the person. Everybody is different. If somebody comes in and says they have asthma, I don't treat asthma. What are your symptoms? What is the underlying cause? Yours could be very different from other people's asthma, too. There are certain themes and I'll get to that, too.

First thing I did is…the first way of testing I used was muscle testing, and I learned that in chiropractic school, and I still use it, and I teach it to people. There's not a day that goes by that I'll use it maybe a hundred times.

[0:09:45] SCOTT: Same.

[0:09:46] DR. ELLEN: Because I don't have a machine with me. I love. The problem with muscle testing is that the arm can get fatigued, and there are different ways you can do it. There are many different ways you can do muscle testing. I've heard all kinds of things over the years from other doctors, how they use it. I thought, there's got to be a computerized system that works. I went all over looking for a computerized system. I've evolved. I've had many evolutions of machines. The one that I use now is called Avatar.

This doctor, Bob Eanes who's the one who developed this machine, who's a genius. He came to me years and years ago, and he said, “Dr. Ellen. Try this machine.” I didn't use it initially, because I felt like, he wasn't a doctor. I thought, how can he really understand what I need to do? How can I put what's in my head into this machine that's attached to a computer?

The reason I like the computer is that you have all kinds of libraries. I call them libraries. That you can't think about in your head. You just don't have that ability to remember all those things. I went all over, went to Europe, I went to dental seminars to find machines. Again, I went through a few of them, and now I use this Avatar. This Avatar, it's a meridian testing machine that was developed in Germany, a Voll test. We’ve been in Germany many, many years ago. That tests meridians, and I use one meridian that I test, and then I have a computerized screen, a computer, a program that he made for me, and he was able to get what's in my head and put on the computer, which was not easy to do. I said, this is what I want.

The libraries expanded over time. It has every item you can imagine on there, any food, any environmental, any bacteria, any virus. I found that there are three aspects that are most important. How the body is detoxifying? Because I really do believe that we're in a toxic world, and you can't even see these toxins. Many people don't detoxify properly. We're looking at the lungs, the colon, the skin, the lymph, and the kidneys. How do they work? If they're not working, you're going to have issues with detoxification, with toxicity. I look at that first, and then I use certain homeopathics, or other things, and I test to what works to help this person detoxify.

Then the second thing I look at, of course, as we talked about, is how they digest food, what foods they're not digesting, what is the best enzyme, digestive enzyme for them? Because some people maybe need more protein digestion, some people need more fat. Most people, it's carbs digestion. I would say, 80% of the people that I've seen over the years. Then the third part, which is really what you talked about and referring to it, and what people know me as besides the enzymes, is I created this desensitization.

I have protocols for all kinds of different symptoms and protocols that I regularly use on all of them, on all people. I look and I test the meridian, I see exactly what they're sensitive to. When you're sensitive, there's a certain change in the reaction with the meridian on the computer. Some can show inflammation. Some can show sensitivity. Some show really bad allergies, too. That takes a long time, because I teach this – that could take 20 years to learn, too, as well, as to the degree that I get, the expertise.

There are certain things that for example, I've written a book on headaches and asthma, certain sensitivities that most asthmatics have is mold, is a big one. Foods, other environmentals, too, and emotions.

[0:14:13] SCOTT: I love this. I think when I first learned about this desensitization work at the time the practitioner was using the Interactive Query System, or IQS, which I think was one of the devices you might have used early on. Then one of my more recent mentors over the last several years, Dr. Simon Yu in St. Louis, he uses a number of devices, but Avatar is one that I had learned a little bit about through my interactions with him. I want to talk a little bit about detox and drainage as our next piece of our conversation.

For me, I think it's so foundational. I think it's a part that a lot of people maybe are missing in their chronic illness. I think drainage is something that many people don't really even talk much about. I was very fortunate to have mentors early on that had a major focus on drainage, German homotoxicology. Again, I think it is something that we really need to look at. How do you differentiate detoxification from drainage? Do you use binders in your patients, things like charcoal, or chlorella, or bentonite? Those types of things.

Then let's touch a little bit on drainage. You mentioned some of the homeopathy that you use. Are those tools like Apex Energetics, or PEKANA, or DesBio, or those types of things? Talk to us a little more about detox and then drainage.

[0:15:37] DR. ELLEN: Yes, great. You speak my language. I love it. When someone comes in, just to give you a little understanding of what I do. I look at if the body is not detoxifying and which vital organs, those detoxification is not happening where they're more toxic load. then I look at drainage, which is – so toxins, getting rid of toxins from the vital organs are great, but you got to get out of your body. That's where the drainage are really important. Some people just need drainage. Most people need both. Some people, it's emotional toxicity, too. We can't forget that. I definitely use some of the Apex flower remedies, their remedies, which Dr. Roy Martina developed them. Was a really good friend of mine. I know them very well.

Based on that, I see which remedies will work. That's how it works with my testing. I can see what they're – where it's bothering them and what will help them. That's really important, too. Look at their medications, too. That could be part of some of the toxicity. I don't tell them to go off of it, but sometimes you have to clear the sensitivity to those medications more often than not. Some vitamins, too. A lot of people come in with all kinds of supplements. Many of them, most of the time, they're sensitive, too, which is causing some toxicity as well.

I use whatever works for them. I first look at Apex. I've been using Apex for years. I look at their specific ones for detoxification of the organs, kidney and lymph and colon, etc. Then I look at the drainages and I look at theirs, too. I love their drainages, Liver Drainage or Lymph Drainage or Gentle Drainage or Kidney Drainage. Those are all I've used for years and years. Definitely, definitely use binders. I love them. I use chlorella. I take it all the time myself. I like charcoal. I test what works. I love PectaSol. You've probably heard of –

[0:17:51] SCOTT: Dr. Eliaz.

[0:17:53] DR. ELLEN: Yes. I love it. I have seen excellent results with detox as a binder, as an anti-inflammatory, too, as well. Results very quickly, too. Sometimes people don't do well with it, so I'll look what works for them. I've used everyone you say, bentonite and charcoal again. But I do like the PectaSol. That's been my favorite one, too, for sure.

Then look at what they're eating, of course. Then sometimes, people need a good detoxification regimen for two to three weeks. I have one on my website that I'm just launching to that helps with detoxification and helps with weight, because really people are not going to lose the weight they need if their body's not detoxifying properly, because toxins are stored in fat, so you got to help the body detoxify.

I'm always careful saying, I don't say you're toxic, because people will say, “Does that mean I'm a toxic person?” I'm always careful to say, your body's just not detoxifying, probably, because everybody has to, because of the environment that we live in. Then I see what is causing the toxins. Is it mold? Is it dust? Is it pollens? Is it chemicals? Is it carcinogen? Is it pesticides? I look at all that, and then I help clear it so that will help the body get desensitized.

When I desensitize, people need to know that I look at all aspects of the desensitization process. Where in the body? How much it is? What else it's related to? Is it related to something you're eating? Is it related to an emotional trauma? Is related to the house? I mean, we could talk hours about just mold and what I've seen, too. It's such a big one. For the immune system, for asthma, for headaches, and a weakened immune system, for sure. I hope that helps. Does that –

[0:19:58] SCOTT: That's fantastic. I totally agree that mold is a big piece of the puzzle. I moved to Denver, Colorado about a year ago, a brand-new house and have had multiple water intrusions. Fortunately, I had had mold illness before and know quite a bit about it, but it's certainly something that I agree with you. It's a big part of the toxic burden that many of us experience.

I want to talk a little bit about how the nervous system impacts our ability to detoxify. If we're constantly in a sympathetic dominant state, does that impact our ability to detoxify and drain? Do we need to do something to calm the nervous system, to tonify the parasympathetic nervous system in order to optimize our detox? What are your thoughts on tools that could be helpful to put the body, to put the nervous system in the right place for optimal detoxification and drainage?

[0:20:52] DR. ELLEN: Yes, absolutely, definitely the autonomic nervous system, whether you're a sympathetic flight or fight, and the parasympathetic, and more often than not, people are in that flight or fight, especially these days. That's one of the combinations I see.

One of the things I do is desensitize. Look at where that sympathetic aspect is, where in the body it's coming out. Is it cardiovascular? Is it the GI? That makes a difference, because getting more specific when you clear and desensitize really helps them clear it more efficiently and quickly and more permanently. Sometimes I'll find something called polyvagal, which you probably know about too. I do recommend helping with parasympathetic. some of the things is massage and touching, affectionate people are not affectionate enough. They don't get touched.

I have to take my chiropractic educational credits every year, and I have to sit for 12 hours in a class. It's a little bit boring. The first thing he said, which I really – it really started off the day pretty good. He said, “You know that chiropractors are the only profession that touch people and people need to be touched.” That's one of the most important to help with parasympathetic, I believe, is that other things I'll use is anything that will increase GABA, taurine is a precursor of GABA, or taking GABA for some people, some people do better with the precursors than they do.

I love glycine. That's been one of the new things I've used for that, and ashwagandha, some of those that I help with the increasing your parasympathetic for sure. More often than not, people do need that for sure.

[0:22:56] SCOTT: Some people have suggested that the body cannot adequately detoxify in the presence of high levels of electromagnetic fields. These are becoming more and more pervasive in our environment. Have you found it helpful to reduce, or mitigate EMF exposure, when someone's working on detoxification?

[0:23:14] DR. ELLEN: Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. I've gone back and forth with it, but I know recently, and again, I rely on my testing, so sometimes it's been coming up more. I don't know why. Maybe you know why, maybe more 5G, but I just notice it comes up a lot. Then when I clear it and help people. For example, I'll give you a great example. One of my patients who's been a patient for years and years, who's a very famous author, he was getting these chronic headaches all the time. I do a lot via Zoom. He lives in Canada, so he doesn't come here that often. We would clear. We come up with things. Then I got electricity, EMFs, all of a sudden, and molds.

What I do when someone, when I find mold – By the way, he lives in Canada. Was a little hard for him to do this, but I have them in a little jar, put a little water in each room and leave it out, uncovered, of course, for 48 hours, and then bring it in, and I will look at the samples. I test people to see, it's not so much that there's mold in the house, because some people, it might be a little bit and have a horrible reaction, because they don't detoxify mold, which you probably know well, know about. Some people, it's not a problem.

It's not so much that it's in the house, because everybody has some mold. It's how your body can detoxify it. I found that, and we worked on that and I gave him some things to do. Then he had someone come in and look at all the electricity, and it was overwhelming how much. Because since the pandemic, he's been working, he's a psychiatrist, he's been working at home, rather than going to the office, because he does so much Zoom now. I'll just stay at home and you know. Changing all that, clearing all that, taking out, his headaches were gone. Electricity. It's electricity, EMF, all of that. Yes.

[0:25:25] SCOTT: Obviously, with mold and with EMFs, we have to reduce the exposures. But do you find that desensitizing people to EMFs and to mold in their environment also is a component of the potential solution?

[0:25:41] DR. ELLEN: Yes, absolutely. I mean, that's what I do the most is I desensitize everything. I have a presentation. I have a big presentation, 800 people. Can you please clear me of the fear and the anxiety? Yes, that's my first thing I do is clear people. It's interesting, Scott. Once your body gets accustomed to clearing, it's like, it does it so quickly. My kids grew up with me doing that. They get it. They understand. I can do it long distance, which is pretty extraordinary. I did it way before the pandemic. I started in 2016 doing indirect clearings and desensitizations, too, by the way.

[0:26:29] SCOTT: If people are listening and interested in this topic, they can reach out to your office and do that work.

What are some of your favorite adjunct detoxification tools? Do you dry brushing, or coffee enemas, or saunas, or foot baths? Then extending on that, how important is water as a part of a detoxification program and having hydration at a cellular level?

[0:26:55] DR. ELLEN: Just my last newsletter before this one was all about dehydration. People can look at my – I'm glad you brought that. Yes, definitely. All of the above. I like all of them, saunas and skin brushing, I do. Cold showers, I do also. But drinking enough water. Then there are certain, and you mentioned earlier, I use all those different remedies, PEKANA, and I've used all of them, too. I test and I see what.

A lot of my patients are very bright. They already know some of these things, too. They say, “Well, test me on so and so. Test me on so and so, too.” Yes, but drinking water. What I do is I have a sip every 30 minutes, because I'm at work. With a mask, it was always hard, so I turn my head and just do that. Yes, the right water and drinking and getting a good filtered water. Find some that are good. The taste is so different, because people say, “I just don't like water.” You know what? They're not drinking good water. When you get good water, your body will love it and you'll want to drink.

[0:28:03] SCOTT: I know some people probably won't agree with this, but my water, I distill it, then I remineralize it and then I structure it and –

[0:28:12] DR. ELLEN: Good for you.

[0:28:13] SCOTT: That works well for me. I think, unfortunately, there aren't very many filtration methods these days that get out enough of the toxins that are in our water. If anyone is drinking tap water, please do something.

[0:28:26] DR. ELLEN: Please, yes. I don't care where you live. It is said that about 80% of our water is polluted, is toxic, all over. It doesn't matter where you live. I love when they say, “Well, my county said that my water is fine. I can drink it.” What does that mean? There's a lot of other things in the water that is not seen that filters, good filters can get out for sure.

[0:28:57] SCOTT: You alluded to weight and weight loss earlier. I just want to touch on this, because I think it's something we don't think about. Maybe you'll disagree, but my thought process is part of the reason that there's such an epidemic of obesity these days is the environmental toxicity that our bodies then are protecting us from that by storing it in our fat and then the opposite perspective that if you're overweight and you're doing something to aggressively lose weight, ideally, you want to be on a detoxification and drainage program, because you're very quickly releasing a lot of those toxicants that the body stored away, that are then out in circulation and potentially creating other problems. Would you agree with that?

[0:29:47] DR. ELLEN: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. One of my libraries that I have on my machine is all about weight. Again, everybody is different. There are some things that might be involved with somebody's weight, but there are things that I have seen that I'd love to just share. Toxicity is huge. That's why I have a detox enzyme weight loss management program. Toxicity. Because you said, toxins are stored in fat. That's important.

The other thing is, is that people eat too much. If you look at – I just finished reading this book. I forgot the exact name. It's about centenarians. Of course, obesity, I believe is the underlying cause of cancer, of COVID, people COVID and people dying from COVID, right? We don't hear that much about it, but you and I read about it, too, and we've seen it. Diabetes, hypertension, cardiovascular problems. I mean, there's nothing – that there's not one condition that doesn't have obesity as one of the core causes of it.

If you look at what people ate in 1976, is there how much in restaurants and you look at what the restaurants serve now, it's three times more. People eat too much. I believe in intermittent fasting. In some way, there's lots of different ways to do it. I think that people can go longer without food at any particular time. They don't need to eat food. Another thing I've seen is digesting, people, and chew their food. Well, digesting your food helps with feeling satiated. It does. Then there are other things, all these dopamine. These dopamine receptors, I think, are sometimes blocked and compromised.

People are not getting feeling satisfied with what they eat. Then they start eating processed foods that gives them a little dopamine thing and then they eat more of that processed food. For example, this Ozempic thing. They don't really know what it does. What I've read, supposedly, that it does help with reducing the dopamine receptors, so you're not craving as much food. That's what really people lose weight is they don't crave the food, too. You can see it works that that's another factor, I think, it's important.

I test all of those. When I work on all of them and then find there, and even on my machine, I can test which is the best diet. Should you be a vegan? Should you be more paleo, or more ketogenic, or whatever? Of course, I'm more in favor of a vegan, because I'm a vegan and I do think it's probably one of the healthiest diets for sure. Then there are other things. Emotional trauma can come up. Emotions can come up. People eat because they're emotional, too. Then there's hormonal imbalances as well, thyroid and that's something that I see also. That gives you a little brief of what I've seen over the years.

[0:33:26] SCOTT: Yeah. No, I love that. I want to step now into a little bit more around the enzymes that we talked about earlier. I think you've been called the Empress of Enzymes, which is, I like that. That's pretty cool.

[0:33:39] DR. ELLEN: I don't remember who came up with that, but I didn’t. Someone.

[0:33:44] SCOTT: It reminds me of one of my friends, Ann Louise Gittleman. She's the First Lady of Nutrition, and you're the Empress of Enzymes.

[0:33:49] DR. ELLEN: I know her very well.

[0:33:51] SCOTT: I'm hanging with some cool people.

We talked about digestive enzymes, but I'm also curious in that enzyme conversation. Is there a place for proteolytic enzymes, or enzymes that are helping with hypercoagulation, with inflammation, with breaking things down in the body as well? What are your thoughts on proteolytic enzymes?

[0:34:14] DR. ELLEN: Yes. Well, in my book, Micro Miracles, I talk a lot about digestive enzymes, which I believe are the most important. I talk about enzymes that work systemically, which are the proteolytic enzymes. I'm really passionate about that, especially protease. So happy you mentioned it, because protease is, if taken with meals, it digests protein. If taken away from meals, it does some other – very important. Has other properties. It's fibrinolytic, like you talked. It's good for people that tend to have more difficulty with clot a little bit more, too, which can of course, be a precursor to stroke and hypertension, etc., too. That will break down clots and breakdowns fiber, and that's what it does.

If it's taken in between, it can eat up foreign protein, so it's good for bacterial infections and viral infections, other protein that the body doesn't recognize. It also can help with killing tumor cells, too. This is important, because it will work, if you take it in between meals. I highly recommend everybody take it. The only caveat is some people, when they take protease, if they have any history of GERD, or heartburn, sometimes it can bring that up and can be a little bit. They can notice more of the GERD. There are ways to get around that, but sometimes there are some that can never take a protease, because of that reason.

I have enzymes on my website, too, that I recommend. There's an enzyme that doesn't have protease and it has other protein digestion enzymes, because sometimes people have a little bit of an issue with it. Other ones, I like Nattokinase, too, because that's also fibrinolytic, and there are different ones, too. They work really well, too. Yes, the proteolytic enzymes are very important.

Now what I do is I put together – it's not longer my company, but I put together a lot of systemic enzyme formulas. For example, one for skin. They all have protease in it, because it helps catalyze some of the use of the herbs and optimizes the ability to absorb it. I have ones for skin. There's ones for kidney. I have an amazing one I've used for years for helping with people who have chronic kidney infections, or UTIs, too. It's amazing. It's like a miracle too. Then there's low thyroid and then there's lymph. There's one for immune support. There's one for vitamin C enzyme. We call it nose and throat that helps with preventing colds and foods, etc. I have a whole line of them, too, that I've used, that again, they're the proteolytic enzyme with the herbs, or foods that helps the body utilize it better.

[0:37:28] SCOTT: I think one of the pearls that you just threw out that's important for people to understand is we're taking 50-100 different pills a day to try to get better and using these digestive enzymes can actually optimize our supplements as well, so that they are more efficient in doing what we hope they're doing. Did I understand you correctly?

[0:37:49] DR. ELLEN: Exactly right. That's exactly. That's perfect. Again, I don't really like to give a lot of supplements, because I like people trying to clear things, rather than just using supplements as well. Some things I find that might be very necessary, things like vitamin D is good, and some probiotics are good for people, too. Most people get a digestive enzyme, that's it.

The one thing that people should know about digestive enzymes, they're food enzymes. They're not replacing your own digestive enzymes at your pancreas and small intestine stomach secrete. They're food. It's normally in food, too. Because we don't chew our food well enough and because some of the co-factors that should be in the soil are just not there anymore, because our soil has been over-agriculturized, especially in this country, that the plants don't have the enzyme reserve that they should have.

Between not chewing well, which I do, I highly advocate that. I chew really well, my salad at night. Can take me an hour and a half to just eat my salad. That's a good one for losing weight though, is chew, because you're going to get sick of chewing all that food and you will eat less for sure.

[0:39:19] SCOTT: I mean, it's interesting. So many people these days have SIBO, or SIFO. I just came across an article yesterday that said, probably one of the best ways to minimize SIBO is to make sure that you're chewing. It seems so simple, but it can really make a big difference. You did not ask to come on this podcast and promote anything, but I know people are going to ask those enzymes that you mentioned, are those available through your website? Is that a specific company? How do we learn more about that?

[0:39:50] DR. ELLEN: Yes. I created a couple of enzymes they call Dr. Ellen's Way that you can purchase on the website. One is for, I call it's GI Calm, people have GERD, or that kind of reflux and then Digest Supreme. The other enzymes are only get through a practitioner. I teach ECM. In fact, I have a class this weekend. We do it via Zoom. Anybody who's on the podcast can call our office and get those enzymes through me just by just participating in this podcast. But usually, you have to go through a practitioner to get these other enzymes for sure. It's not something that people can purchase as a consumer, which I think is good, because I encourage people to work with people that do ECM, or doctors that carry this, that know how to recommend it and prescribe it.

[0:40:50] SCOTT: You've said that it's not what we eat, but what we assimilate, or absorb that makes us healthy. Isn't that true, even if someone is eating the standard American diet, or the SAD diet, do we want to assimilate more of that? Should everyone be on a digestive enzyme, or only those people that are actually eating high-quality nutrient dense food?

[0:41:15] DR. ELLEN: That's a great question. I don't think I've ever had that question. That's a great one. I believe everyone should be on a good full spectrum digestive enzyme. Interesting enough, some people, when they start digesting food, they eat less of the SAD, the standard American diet, and become more interested in eating whole plant food diet, or mostly, whole plant food diet, or a diet that will support your health and well-being, rather than destroy your health and well-being for sure.

Again, it's what's at the end of your fork that is so important. We talk about, well, you said it also early on, we talk about diseases and COVID and cancer, whatever. I truly believe that staying healthy is darn simple. What you eat is so important. There's so many things we can't control in our environment, but we can control what we put in our mouth every day, for sure.

[0:42:36] SCOTT: When someone is reactive to numerous foods, they're down to grapes, or they're down to, as one of my clients years ago, they were down to just alligator. When someone is reactive to various foods, how much can taking a digestive enzyme minimize those reactions and in more ultra-sensitive people that are down to just a very limited number of foods, have you seen digestive enzymes allow them to tolerate a more diverse diet to expand the items that they are able to eat?

[0:43:10] DR. ELLEN: Yes. In fact, I say that – I would say, sometimes 80% of food sensitivities can be cleared by taking a digestive enzyme. That's what happened to me. There were some foods that I did need to desensitize to, and there's some foods I wouldn't eat anyway. I have found over the years that carbs for me were inflammatory. Maybe I hurt my back. I was a runner and hurt my back. I realized that when I didn't eat carbs, my back didn't hurt. But when I ate carbs, my back – I remember sitting there was years and years ago, I'm thinking, I can't eat rice or I can't eat breads, because it's inflammatory for me.

I probably haven't had a bread in 40 something years. I don't, because I know it's inflammatory, too. Of course, I had all this issue with colitis, too. But yes, most people will benefit greatly by taking a full spectrum digestive enzyme and see that they can tolerate food much better. That's what I've seen. It gets better over time, too.

[0:44:22] SCOTT: Many of these enzyme products that are available are created using Aspergillus as part of the manufacturing process. This is highly debated and I've heard people argue both sides, but do you find that some people can be reactive to the enzymes, because maybe they had a history of mold illness and thus, they react to supplements where Aspergillus was used in the manufacturing process? Or is there really nothing left in the final product that they should be reactive to from an Aspergillus perspective?

[0:44:56] DR. ELLEN: Another great question. The enzymes, the fungal enzymes they’re grown on Aspergillus. There is absolutely no Aspergillus in the enzyme product. But our mind plays tricks on us, too. I've had maybe in the years I've been in practice, maybe Scott, maybe 40 something years, I've seen two people where they cannot take it, because they had a situation with Aspergillus and mold.

I think what happens is that one of the things I clear is thoughts, habit patterns, habit thoughts. You can think that these enzymes are mold and you're going to have a reaction. It's very true. I help try to clear that, but some people would refuse to even take the enzyme. It's really excellent question, because there is no mold in there. If anybody's had trouble with mold, there's nothing that they should be afraid of if they take it. Again, there are thought patterns.

One of the things I wanted to also say relative to ECM is that when I work on people and I test, let's say they come in and they have a headache and I find all the different causes of headache, and many times, it's not just one thing. That's why just one medicine is not going to really help every single person, right? Just telling them, just them seeing what it is, they feel better. Their migraine goes away, their headache goes away. Thoughts are very – and what you see, the IQS machine, I remember the person that developed it, Roy Curtin, who always said that my work is information, the information in all the different ways, whether it's clearing, because I use a little meridian tapping method to clear it. Whether it's even telling people, or doing that all works, because it's all informational for them.

[0:47:04] SCOTT: My observation has been as well, but I think they are generally well tolerated, even with the Aspergillus component of the manufacturing process. When they're not, I've wondered if either it could be that there are some energetic component of those things having been in Aspergillus as part of the manufacturing process. Or if it's also just a limbic system component, where we're already expecting that we're going to have a reaction, and thus we do.

[0:47:36] DR. ELLEN: I agree with both. I work energetically, too. Energetically, yes, there could still be a reaction. For example, a person who had COVID, their tests are normal, they're fine, they're not positive, they're negative. I energetically still find they’re sensitive to it. That's why they're fatigued. They still have headaches. They have brain fog. They have vertigo. They're having all that. They so understand that. It doesn't mean they have it acutely, or even chronically, energetically. When that energetic reaction is cleared, they feel better. Yes, absolutely. That's it.

That can be cleared with the ECM method. Hopefully then, they can be able to take it and it won't bother them. Like I said, I've had two people in my practice where they couldn't take it. That's how many people over the years, too.

[0:48:38] SCOTT: I love that you call it the ECM method, because that's an acronym for one of my other favorite topics, which is the extracellular matrix, which is key in drainage that we talked about earlier as well.

[0:48:50] DR. ELLEN: Exactly. That's right. I remember that, too. Actually, Bob came up with the ECM, because we were thinking of another name and he said, “Just call it ECM.”

[0:48:59] SCOTT: When do you suggest people take their digestive enzyme relative to their meal?

[0:49:04] DR. ELLEN: I recommend taking it 10 minutes before you eat, or right before you eat. Now, new studies say, you can even take it after you eat and it still works. Because I used to think that taking it during the meal, or after, because it is an enzyme that pre-digests your food in some way. You can even take it after and it works.

Also, if you can't take it with every meal, even one meal a day or two meals a day are fine. You'll still notice the difference in your digestion, too. I won't eat anything, unless I have an enzyme. I don't leave home without my enzymes. But changed my life. I would never… To this day, I remember what I felt like, and I remember and I know how I feel now.

[0:49:54] SCOTT: You are a pioneer in this desensitization arena. I think the other pioneer is Devi Nambudripad with NAET, and then your system with BioSET and now the Ellen Cutler Method. I mean, I think the two of you really are probably the creators of all of this work and all of the other systems that have come since. I want to talk a little bit about, what does it mean to become sensitized to something? Are we generally thinking more of the energetic body, the nervous system being sensitive to something? Is it truly immunological? Then, can we think of the process of desensitization as essentially, a reprogramming of the software that runs the body so that it behaves differently in the presence of that sensitized substance?

[0:50:50] DR. ELLEN: Yes. There are so many reasons why people become sensitive to something. For me, I believe it was emotional. Because when we ate dinner, there were fights. That's why I don't go to business meetings that have – I don't eat when I go there. I want to eat. When I eat, I want to eat. I don't want to be talking about business. Even if it's positive stuff, it's too emotionally charged for me. I'm an emotional person.

I do believe emotions. It's like, when I do my work. Let's say, you were – just give a good example. You were sensitive to corn, which is a highly sensitive food. I look at what is underlying that corn sensitivity. Maybe I find the nervous system, I find emotions, poor digestion, toxicity, it's genetic. I clear all of that. If you come back next time, it's better, but it's still there a little bit. What else is there? Is it a thought? Is it a trauma relative to something that happened when you were younger, that you were eating corn? Or is it something in the brain even, or nervous system. There are so many reasons for it.

Then I clear you again, too. Then you come back and it's cleared. It should stay. Scott, it should stay cleared forever. Why not? I will never forget. I had somebody that came to see me. He was a physicist and I'll never forget this. He said, “I felt like something snapped and I became sensitive to all these foods. Someone told me to come see you. They felt like, maybe I can find where that, why and when and where that happened. You can help me snap out of it.” You know what I found? I found parasite. I cleared that particular thing. I cleared the parasite One treatment, and he never had food sensitivities again.

It could be anything. That's why it's so different for people. You could have a Strep infection and maybe that was combined with a food, or foods, and you became sensitive to a bunch of foods. There's so many different reasons, but clearing it should clear forever. The reasons that could come back is emotional trauma, physical trauma, or bad flu, or COVID. Having COVID, a lot of people, I had to redo some of the foods that they had been okay with for years. I mean, I have people that call me 20 years and they'll come in and I still see them cleared of those foods they came in the beginning. That's pretty incredible.

[0:53:48] SCOTT: You mentioned the parasite piece. Is it reasonable to imagine that mold exposure in your home could be something that triggers sensitivity, or high levels of EMFs, for example? Or maybe, even getting a little too excited about your supplement program and taking too much of maybe an antimicrobial that then triggers a strong Herxheimer, or detoxification reaction? Could any, or all of those things also then lead to potential sensitivity?

[0:54:22] DR. ELLEN: Yes, and I've seen all of the above. I've seen all of them. Mold is a big one, too. When I find mold what I do first is, first of all, if it needs remediation, I have their house inspected and see if there is mold that needs remediation. If it does, I highly recommend it. Then I keep clearing them. I also have them do a mycotoxin test because. Mycotoxins are toxins in the body for mold. Molds are in the body. It's a myco…it’s the toxin from the mold you've been exposed to. That is probably the culprit in how people are feeling.

Doing that, and there's a urine test in different companies that do it. That's one of the tests. I look at labs, and I recommend them too, because I can help my clearing. That's an important one that I do look at, because mold. I've seen it. I had a patient come to see me just to – he was a very well-known attorney. This is what happened. He was asked to go to Portland, because the attorney that was covering this case got sick and he took his place and he had to go to Portland and spend some time in Portland for a little while in a motel.

I lived in Portland, so I know it rains all the time there. After he leaves Portland, within two weeks, he could not use his body from here to here. He was paralyzed. He just got married to his second wife. They were on their honeymoon. They were going to go on their honeymoon. I mean, it was like, and she had to feed him, Scott. He was a very well-known, went all over. Someone told him to come see me. You know, what I found was mold. He said, “I knew it.” He said, “Something didn't smell right. I felt something in there.”

Mold is a huge factor that's toxic and very, very, very difficult, because you don't see it sometimes. That's why what I do and what you do is so tremendous, because we can see this. I can find it. There's not many other places they can find this. Other techniques. Just that alone makes it revolutionary, really.

[0:56:53] SCOTT: You mentioned that maybe if somebody had food sensitivities and those were clear, that that should last indefinitely. What if they then are exposed to another one of these triggers of sensitization, like another significant mold exposure, or an emotional trauma, can those sensitivities then come back, because they've now had another trigger that's reset it back to the more sensitive state?

[0:57:22] DR. ELLEN: Absolutely. That's really what can cause it. The other thing that can cause it, too, is if you don't digest your food, too. Because undigested food gets into the bloodstream and then over time, the body sees it as an allergen. It reacts to it. You have reactions. Yes. Any big toxicity like that mold can definitely cause. It shouldn't be as bad as it was. That's, if it was truly cleared, because there's some techniques out there they clear, but they don't truly clear these things completely, because their testing isn't good. Muscle testing is not that accurate.

What you do is probably, because that's been your specialty. You do muscle testing. I find when you watch people do muscle testing, I'm like – it's like, they're testing people, I’m saying, “No, there's so many other factors that you have to take into consideration when you're doing those muscle testing.”

[0:58:19] SCOTT: I mean, even if your muscle testing is good, you still cannot do the number of things that might be required when you're talking about going through libraries of things. I mean, at least from my perspective, there aren't many muscle testers that could test 800 things in a single session, like you can do with an electrodermal screening device, right?

[0:58:43] DR. ELLEN: If you watch me, Scott, or people out there listening, if you watch, it would blow your mind what I find and what I have on here. I can share my screen, so people can see what I'm testing. What comes up, I never know what's going to come up. What comes up is –

[0:59:02] SCOTT: You're the detective.

[0:59:04] DR. ELLEN: Yes. I mean, I've come up with diabetes, and symptoms that people didn't have and then they go, “How do you know that?” I mean, it's not that I'm totally accurate a 100% of the time, but I'm pretty good. I've been doing it. It’s my life. This is an extension of me.

[0:59:21] SCOTT: I mean, you are the pioneer.

What happens when we become sensitized to something? Does that then mean that when we're encountering that substance, that food, or supplement, or whatever, that we can then have increased inflammation, because the body is reactive, or sensitized and then maybe even poor assimilation? Maybe we're taking something really good for us, but because the body sees it as a toxin, it isn't quite as welcoming. Maybe it's one way that it almost treats it more like it's a toxin. Then maybe differentiate for us, is allergy a different thing? Meaning, if you have peanut allergy and that's really an immunological response, is desensitization the right tool, or is sensitivity really a little different from more extreme allergy?

[1:00:22] DR. ELLEN: Yes. Again, one thing that I do initially is where in your body is the sensitivity occurring? Is it the nervous system? You have brain fog because of these foods. Is it causing headaches? Is it affecting the joints? Is it causing arthritic pain? Because everybody over 50 has some arthritis, but why do some people have pain? It's because I think some food sensitivities, too, will affect that. I talk about this in my book, too. When I teach is that when you don't digest the food, undigested food can get into the bloodstream and can create an immune complex. The immune system sees it, attaches to it and we call these circulating immune complexes. Those immune complex can travel to different parts of the body, and what can land in synovial fluid causing joint arthritic pain, or inflammation. Or it can cause kidney issues. Or it can cause GI problems.

Sensitivities can be different for different people, depending on genetics, depending on toxicity, depending on whatever else your body's involved with, too. Then when you clear these sensitivities, you're clearing on all those different levels. That's why it's so important to look at each aspect of that when they do the clearing, too. Food allergy, really true food allergies is what's called an IgE, which is the antibody that can cause an anaphylactic reaction, too. There's an antigen antibody reaction that can cause anaphylaxis, which could be your breathing, things swell up, you can't swallow. It could be fatal and people have died from it. That's not common, although we hear about it because it can be fatal. More common is food sensitivities.

ECM does not work with those. Although I have had success with it. I tell people, they come in and they say, “Can you clear me?” I said, no. “Can you try to make it less severe?” I said, no. She said, “Well, can we just clear it. Could it be in the clearing?” I said, sure. That's fine. But I'm not telling can you eat it. Then people come back and say, “Well, now I can eat peanuts, and I can eat this and that.” It has cleared and maybe it wasn't severe. I still don't know why. I don't understand.

[1:03:03] SCOTT: It may be also that you are then combining it with the digestive enzymes and other things. At least in my mind, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but if we're thinking about foods and then doing a desensitization, it doesn't mean we're going to immediately go back to eating large quantities of that food on a regular basis. Maybe the goal is more to minimize inflammatory responses and increase the assimilation of nutrients when you do then have those things.

[1:03:30] DR. ELLEN: Exactly. That's exactly perfect, definitely.

[1:03:35] SCOTT: In the Lyme disease community, we have this Alpha-gal syndrome that is emerging in fairly large numbers of people from a tick bite, where then they cannot eat red meat, or foods that contain alpha-galactose, which is a sugar. Wondering if you've worked in this desensitization process with any patients with Alpha-gal. If so, are you looking more at the foods, or looking more at that specific sugar molecule?

[1:04:05] DR. ELLEN: Well, just too, I work with other doctors with patients with Lyme, and I like working with other doctors. It's important for them to be under the guidance of. One of the doctors that I worked a lot with was Dr. Graeme Shaw, who passed away this year. We had many mutual patients together, and a few other people that we both know really well. I've found Lyme in my testing and then have people tested. Sometimes they'll come up with it more often than not. Sometimes they don't. But it's interesting that I still find it, maybe because their friend has it, and they're thinking it, and I find it on there. Again, what you think can be seen and can cause problems as well in your body.

I have seen that, and then what I do is I look – what I do is I look at the Lyme spirochetes and see what I find, and then look where it's bothering the person, what foods are related to it, too, or what else comes up in relationship to it, I clear it. I do feel my clearings with people in combination with else they're doing, with other doctors, we've had great success with it, too.

[1:05:29] SCOTT: Even in people that specifically had that red meat allergy from their tick-borne infection?

[1:05:33] DR. ELLEN: Yes.

[1:05:34] SCOTT: Okay, very cool. Love it.

[1:05:35] DR. ELLEN: I haven't seen that many, but yes, I have. Yeah.

[1:05:39] SCOTT: Can we be reactive to just the frequency of a substance, rather than the substance itself? This was years ago, this is probably 2007 or 2008, I was shadowing a naturopath, doing a system of muscle testing that originated with Dr. Klinghardt called Autonomic Response Testing. She put one vial that was not the substance, but just the frequency of a substance in that person's field. I remember the lady's face started turning red, and she said she was having trouble breathing, and she said, “What is that? What is that?” The naturopath looked, and she said, “Oh, it's corn.” The person was very allergic, had anaphylactic reactions to corn.

In this case, it wasn't quite as extreme. But I was really surprised that just the frequency of the corn led to that same reaction. I guess, the question is, when we're sensitive to things, can it sometimes be just the energetics of the thing, rather than a completely biochemical type response?

[1:06:47] DR. ELLEN: Yes, definitely. I think a lot of times, what I find is the energetics to that as well. The energetics to people. I mean, the fact that why is it – people will say, “I went into a room and I had these reactions.” It's probably energetically a reaction to a person as well, it could be energetically a reaction to just – Sometimes they'll write on it. Just looking at it written on that, or just seeing something written on the page, people have a reaction to it. That’s part of the work that I do for sure. I have seen that definitely, but that can be cleared for sure, too.

[1:07:41] SCOTT: Do you desensitize people to their spouses or significant others?

[1:07:45] DR. ELLEN: Oh, every day.

[1:07:48] SCOTT: I love it. This is so cool.

[1:07:51] DR. ELLEN: Well, it's funny, because I just – this patient I saw today, who we've been working with. Oh, my goodness. Scott, mold. I had found mold. She was having all these when I found mold. She's been a client of mine for many, many years. She lives in Gilroy. She owns this big body shop in Gilroy. In fact, I had sent her to Dr. Shaw to get some mold testing too, and some other things and he said, “Just tell Dr. Ellen to clear this on you, because it's overwhelming how much.” We found mold in all these different places. It was just incredible.

I was jumping up and did it today, because today is the first day. Everything was cleared in the house. She spent $500,000 remediating her house. That's how much it is. But she loved this place, she didn’t want to move. She said, “But I go away and I have no symptoms at all. My eyes are fine, whatever. I come back to the house.” She says, “I think I'm allergic to the house.” Sure enough, I said, “Well, I'm going to work on that today.” I found ex-husband. I found her son she's had some issues with. It was so interesting when I found. She said, “It's all right on.”

Yes, I do it all the time. Because even if you're divorced, it doesn't mean energetically, there's not some cords, or some things that are still involved with these people that you're still reacting to. Then of course, you’d have kids with them, spouses that you've divorced, you have relationships with them forever, right?

[1:09:30] SCOTT: Oh, I'm sure even you as a practitioner, I suspect that you also have to be aware of that and clearing those cords as you referred to them from your patients, right? That their hope is hanging on you. They're in a difficult situation. There's a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety around it. I suspect, you have to be quite good at clearing yourself as well using this process.

[1:09:56] DR. ELLEN: Yeah. I think for me, yes, I clear myself every day. I clear my children every day. I clear my husband every day. There's certain people I clear every day that ask me to. I just love them so much. I love this work and I truly – they're just an extended family. I love these people. Because you know what? I feel for them so much. Going through what I went through, I have so much empathy for them, even if it's a little thing, even if it's a thing, you know, I have one person that is so allergic to cannabis. I don't know if she draws it to her, but she's always smelling it. It's like, sometimes I think, really? But I feel for her, because she really suffers it.

[1:10:47] SCOTT: A lot of it has mold as well when you're getting into that.

[1:10:49] DR. ELLEN: Yes, I know. We have a whole other thing. Yes. Pesticides, too.

[1:10:55] SCOTT: If someone's coming to you to start doing desensitization, is there an average number of sessions they would expect? If you were doing a session on let's say, foods, can you do one food, 10 foods? A 100 foods? How does that work in terms of the scope of what a session can clear for someone?

[1:11:15] DR. ELLEN: Yeah, that's a good question. Again, everybody is different, but I do multiple foods at one time. It usually works really well, because I've developed a technique into such a degree that that's possible. It depends on what they come in for. The problem is that people feel so good, they get a little addicted to that. Because within one week, there's so many things that can happen. They like to see me once a week. Some people see me once a month as maintenance, or just to see what's coming up.

Yeah, my practice is I haven't taken new patients. I do if they plead with me, but I haven't taken new patients in a long time. That's why I'm trying to teach. These people, it's preventative. I have things vulnerable to virus, vulnerable to stroke, vulnerable to cardiovascular. I test that on these people every day. They love that I test that. Because let's say, I find vulnerable to virus, they take vitamin D, they take extra vitamin C, or whatever they need to do, and they don't get sick.

[1:12:25] SCOTT: There is a therapy that I personally found very helpful, called low dose immunotherapy, or LDI from Dr. Ty Vincent in Hawaii. It essentially creates more tolerance, or integration within our microbiome, in a sense, desensitizing us to specific microbes, like Borrelia, or Bartonella, or Babesia, or maybe a virus. It's a method of immune modulation. I'm wondering, and you already alluded to this so we know the answer, but I think it's important to put out there.

Can we use energetic desensitization in a similar manner to desensitize one to their chronic infections and might being sensitive to an infection, create more of the inflammation and symptom picture than the microbe itself, could we use desensitization to create a more regulated, appropriate immune response to those components of our microbiome?

[1:13:24] DR. ELLEN: Yes. That's exactly what I do all the time. I will use little vials, too. I use crystals also, to lead people where. I also use drops, too. You can use drops. Some people like to use drops, just like some of these other techniques for the immunotherapy. Yes, exactly. I can clear the sensitivity to those microbes. That's what I do a lot. I will look. Let's say I find back, let's say I test you, Scott, and I found, let's say, I still find some mold and fungus. I will keep clearing you and seeing exactly where all these different aspects of that sensitivity, what it is, clear you for it and keep clearing, until I get completely fine. You'll know it too, because you'll feel it, so you’re completely fine to that.

I work with people that use those also. What's also nice about ECM is really, nothing conflicts with it. The only thing that does this one thing is that I will not take anyone who smokes. I will help them clear it, because you can clear the desire for smoking. If they're not intentionally interested in smoking, because you're – that's so toxic. Because I can't work with someone that's so intoxicated with something that's harming their body.

[1:14:50] SCOTT: They're not really that invested in their own healing process potentially.

[1:14:54] DR. ELLEN: Yeah. That's one thing I've always said. The other thing too that's hard to work with is people on prednisone, high doses. Low dose is okay. Because prednisone masks everything. It's like plastic. You're not really seeing the person, because it's covering up a lot. That's what it does. Increasing prednisone, you decrease your antibodies, you decrease your immune reaction. I'm not getting to see the immune reaction that people are having. One of the things you asked too, I think it's important. I'm not sure what I'm doing really. Is it only energetic? Is it physical, too? Is it really working on the immune system? I would love someday to really do some research with somebody that was interested in learning, because I see results and I see results on labs and I see results on Lyme. Lyme tests will be fine.

I'm not sure how much. I do feel that I change genetics. I can change. ECM can help with genetics. I felt that for years and years and years, but now I've never really had it studied, so I can't really say. It's just my hypothesis.

[1:16:04] SCOTT: I think we've also touched on this a good bit, but so many of the people, maybe everyone that's going to listen to this has some mold and mycotoxin issues. I would suggest that anyone with chronic Lyme disease, which is a lot of our audience that mold and mycotoxins are almost always a component, whether it's from their home, or their workplace, or their school. We know now that desensitization could be helpful in dealing with mold, dealing with mycotoxins. But if they then leave your office and they go back to their un-remediated home and they're still exposed at high levels to those same things, will that clearing have a significant benefit, or do they need to combine that with remediation, like you alluded to with your other patient? What have you found helpful in working with those people with mold and mycotoxins from a desensitization perspective?

[1:16:58] DR. ELLEN: It's a great, great question. This is what I do first. I try to clear them. They bring in their samples, I try to clear the mold. If over a period of time it's not, I'm not getting the results that I should be getting, then I will definitely say, something needs to be done. I do also recommend that they have somebody inspect their house, too. Somebody who really knows what they're doing, that really is good at this. Because there are people that are not qualified really. I have people I recommend. Somebody is really qualified and they are saying, yes, you do have it, why not remediate it? Do something to help it.

For example, I have a patient who has – she's had chronic asthma. There's a whole story in herself. I mean, they wanted to remove part of her lung, because she had exposure to Aspergillus, by the way. She said, and she was referred to me after going to different people and start to do other natural therapies, but nothing really worked. Chronic cough, whatever. She's done great. I mean, she hasn't needed to have her lung removed, part of her lung removed. She's done fabulously and still a client of mine.

Maybe last year, she started coughing, and I found mold, and I went, “Uh-oh. Loreen, what are we going to do?” I said, get someone. Because she's afraid immediately. I said, get someone in there. They did, and they said, “Oh, there's a little bit here. Nothing.” I said, it is under – it is in your couch, in the underneath somewhere there. I found it exactly. I said, “You have them come back and look.” Sure enough, they found all this mold. For her, she needs it. Finding mold, when you want to remediate it, I would. You have children. It's very, very, very compromising to your system and your immune system.

[1:19:07] SCOTT: I'm guessing that at this point, you have worked with a number of people with long COVID, symptoms that persist after having COVID. With so many people now dealing with long COVID, with spiked protein related issues, do you find a role for desensitization? Can people be desensitized to the spike protein, to the virus itself? Does that clinically seem to move the needle for those people that are struggling with long COVID?

[1:19:34] DR. ELLEN: Yes. In fact, my book, the new version, I have a new chapter on the COVID pandemic and enzymes. Enzymes really, enzymes I find. Yes, I work a lot. What I said before, too, is let's say, you come in with – you've had COVID come with all these symptoms. I find that you're still energetically reacting to that virus, or the messenger RNA, or the vaccine. I have certain cytokines. I've done a lot of research, Scott. On my program, I have many of the cytokines that are involved with long COVID.

By the way, there's long cold, too. People will have viral viruses. They'll say, “How come I have a viral virus? I haven't seen anyone a bit.” I said, you know what? Could be from the past. You're still reacting to these viruses, any of the viruses, varicella, herpes viruses, that kind of thing. I work a lot with that. Yes. Everybody is different. There's motions related to it. Nervous system could be related to it. Other viruses, like Epstein-Barr could be related to it, too. Lyme could be.

I see what comes up, and until I feel they've cleared it. Then I make use of certain supplements I find. Quercetin has been good for sometimes when people pick to solve the good binders too, good. There are certain supplements that I do recommend too, and the enzyme as well, and protease is very important. I've had really good results with COVID. Sometimes it upsets me, because you read it bad, there's not one thing that will work for everyone, because everybody is different. This work is tailored to the individual. It's not one thing is – everybody is different with it. That's what distinguishes some – this technique from other things that are out there.

[1:21:28] SCOTT: Probably just restating the question to see if there's any other thoughts that come to mind. With all of the changes in the world from the pandemic, more and more people dealing with chronic illness, long COVID, reactivation of Lyme, reactivation of Bartonella, reactivation of EBV. We know all of those are playing a role, maybe even mycoplasma in pandemic related illnesses as well. What are the patterns that you've observed in your patients over the past couple of years that maybe are different from what you had seen before, and then some of the key tools that you're finding most helpful in supporting your patients in our current times?

[1:22:09] DR. ELLEN: Yes. Well, one of the things I've seen is that people really want to take care of themselves. They are more interested in learning how they can take care of themselves and their family. That's why now I teach ECM to everyone to learn it. Because I used to just teach to health practitioners. Not anybody can take it. They do amazing. They have great results. You can't really hurt them. They do amazing results. I'm always there to help them with it.

The other thing I've seen is people have mast cell. That's something we haven’t talked, mast cell activation. I have seen more of that and more exacerbation of mast cell, which is a histamine reaction in people more than I ever had. I don't know why that's occurred. I've seen people more with vascular problems since then, too, as well. That can be a result of COVID, or the vaccine, too, because we've read about certain issues as a result of both of that, too. Emotional stuff, depression, loneliness is a big one. Because there's a lot of people that still don't go out. I have elderly people that still won't go out and they're home all alone all the time. That's tough.

I kept working throughout the whole thing. I was here at the office, people would come see me, or Zoom. I feel fortunate, because I had a way to keep relating to people. That's been something that I've seen. I work with ECM as well.

[1:23:49] SCOTT: Extending that on the emotion, so we know that emotions can be a trigger for someone becoming sensitized and that you can also desensitize people to those emotions. We can use this desensitization process to work with the emotions, to help clear them. Are there other tools that you also use? You mentioned some of the flower essences as well. Are there any other things in the mental-emotional realm, which seems to be such a major component of chronic illness? Do you work with EMDR? Or what other adjunct tools do you find helpful for your patients in this realm, if that's even necessary?

[1:24:29] DR. ELLEN: Yes. I’ve recommended EMDR, especially for trauma. People have had trauma. I have somebody that I recommend. I like tapping, EFT, Emotional Freedom Technique. I highly recommend that. Some people do that while they're even getting cleared when I'm on Zoom with them, they'll do some tapping, too. Yeah, exactly. Right. All that.

Exercise, I think, is really important. I'm such a proponent of exercise. I find that it's hard to feel depressed. There's people who are really depressed and it's a disease. People that have depression, that's not severe, exercise is important, looking at your diet is important, remembering what you put in your mouth. You feel it's what – what your body's expressing is what your body's ingesting is important, too. Those are things that I recommend as well. I love the tapping and I do love EMDR for sure.

[1:25:38] SCOTT: I want to give people, as we start wrapping up, a sense for what a desensitization session is like. If they come into your office, you're using your avatar to get a sense for what they're sensitive to. Then walk us through what happens from the time they come into your office and start that testing to the time that they leave. What is the process itself? You mentioned there's a acupressure portion of the session. Is that to give the body the signal of safety, that these items are not dangerous to them? What does this process look like?

[1:26:15] DR. ELLEN: Yes. Again, I do it via Zoom, indirect. As well as people coming in. If they say they come in and they have different symptoms, they're have headache, or they're nauseous, I look at the symptoms and I see what is going on. Then I evaluate and I go through a stress evaluation and I see what are the underlying factors that are causing these symptoms. That will take a half hour to an hour to an hour and a half. It depends on what is going on and what I'm finding too, because I might go through all these different emotions and find that. Then when I find everything, I energetically create a signature of what I found and I use either crystal or a vial. Some people use their rings, or their necklaces, whatever, because they wear it all the time.

If they're here, there's an acupressure technique that I do. I go down their spine, they breathe in, they breathe out, they pant, all kinds of different aspects of how a person feels. I want to really cover all of it. Left brain, right brain. I do that. Once that's done, that takes about a minute or two minutes. Then I retest them. If they're clear on everything, I'm trying to desensitize, they're fine and they leave. They treat themselves at home. I teach them how to do that themselves. Otherwise, I'll redo it again.

Then when I treat somebody indirectly, I send them their vials and then they do the clearing at home, too, as well. I have a way of clearing, too, that I can support them also. That's what covers it, too. Again, it could be a few things. It could be a few foods. It could be 30 things. It depends on what I find for that particular person. I like to cover all of it at one session. I don't like to take people. I always give an hour. I don't do anything less than an hour. Some people do two hours, and some people will do an hour and a half. An hour takes me to really evaluate all, because I need to talk to them and hear what's going on. That's the session, too. Then I look at toxicity that day always. I look at how their digestion is, too. Always look at that each time as well.

[1:28:30] SCOTT: I'm guessing though, you mentioned that you try to do it in a single session. If somebody is reactive to foods and has chronic infections and has mold and mycotoxins and all of those things, I'm guessing that for some people, that there would be a series of sessions that they would work with you on, right? Is that correct, or can you do all –

[1:28:48] DR. ELLEN: Yeah. No. Someone comes in, I will do a whole – it would take two hours, do a whole evaluation. I'll look at everything. Foods, I go through every single food, because people don't realize, some foods they think, oh, they're sensitive to. Some people are sensitive to every food. Yeah, I'll look at all that. Then I have a priority. Then I see, what's the best thing for the next one that I do.

I have a basic ones I do first, which includes vitamins and minerals, because you can be sensitive to that. The mitochondria, the Krebs cycle, citric acid cycle, glycolysis, I look at all that, because mitochondria are key. Yes. Then I have priorities of what I do next.

[1:29:30] SCOTT: Why do you think the concept of desensitization has not caught on more and been more embraced by the medical community?

[1:29:42] DR. ELLEN: That's a great question. I don't think they know about it. I think that there needs to be some research. I would love…. For years, I thought, why don't we do one on asthma? It's very straightforward. Either you have asthma, or you don't. See how it works. Forever, that's one of my goals is for that to occur. Because I'm getting older, I'd want to leave this to people, because I don't want my work to just fade away, because it works so well and it should be part of the standard medical rest techniques that are out there for sure.

[1:30:29] SCOTT: For people listening then, if they're more of a patient and they're interested in this work, I know you're not taking new patients, but is there a way for them to find practitioners that are trained in the Ellen Cutler Method? Then talk to us, for practitioners that are listening, how can they become part of your practitioner training for the Ellen Cutler Method?

[1:30:52] DR. ELLEN: Yes. Until I get really advanced practitioners that you can call and we have some that we can recommend if you are a patient. Again, I'm open to anybody learning. If you're a patient and want to study, that's great, too. Eventually, we'll have a list of practitioners, referral list on the website. If you're interested in learning, I talk all about it. I do it via Zoom, and somebody else that teaches how to use the machine, how to negotiate, how to work with the avatar. Then I teach the rest of the technique.

I'm also training other trainers. Hopefully, we'll get more training out there, too. Then I have a whole thing about it on the website, drellencutler.com. Then you can call our office, Cynthia, who's my assistant, will help you find someone, help you steer you in the right direction if you want to learn it as well, too. I have one this weekend that's coming up that I will be doing, and then I'll be doing another one fairly soon, too. They're fun to do. I love it.

[1:32:02] SCOTT: What if a practitioner already uses a different electrodermal screening device? Is it pretty easy to take the concepts from your practitioner training and then work in the context of different tools? Or do you really recommend that they then switch to the avatar for this purpose?

[1:32:19] DR. ELLEN: I am totally open to people learning my work and using another machine, absolutely, too. They might be a little bit, because they'll see me share my screen, how I do it. If they're open to seeing that and learning the protocols and the – because I have specific libraries of everything from anti-aging, to weight, all kinds of things. They'll learn what to look for, what to test. I'm completely open to that for sure.

[1:32:49] SCOTT: Beautiful. My last question is the same for every guest. That is, what are some of the key things that you do on a daily basis in support of your own health?

[1:32:59] DR. ELLEN: I'm a raw vegan. Like, I recommend everybody raw vegan. I do like being a vegan. I take my digestive enzyme with every meal. I exercise every day. I have a Peloton I use. Since the pandemic, I used to go to a gym, but I bought a Peloton. I love it. Because they have everything on there. I do that. I exercise every day. I do intermittent fasting. Most days, in fact, all the days, I really am strict with my diet. I'm a little neurotic. Sometimes I think I'm from another planet, because I never cheat. I don't eat any processed foods. I hardly eat any carbs. I really don't eat any fat. No fat, no salt, no sugar. I love, love spending time with my grandchildren.

[1:33:50] SCOTT: That's wonderful.

[1:33:52] DR. ELLEN: That's the best thing that ever happened to me is having my children have children.

[1:33:59] SCOTT: From one neurotic person to another, I had so much fun in this conversation. One of the ones that I've just absolutely enjoyed.

[1:34:07] DR. ELLEN: This has been my best interview I've ever had.

[1:34:10] SCOTT: Oh, thank you.

[1:34:10] DR. ELLEN: Scott, you’re great, great. It was great.

[1:34:13] SCOTT: It's a little bit of the Bartonella residue creating some OCD, I think. I do love doing this and looking for the pearls that I know people have. This really was my first opportunity to connect with you in person, but you have touched my life. The acupuncturists that I worked with starting in 2005 had really learned a lot from you previously. I've worked with other practitioners in the desensitization realm as well that have really learned from your work. Whether or not you know it, a lot of my Lyme and mold recovery journey has really been incredibly blessed by your work. It is an honor for me to have you on the show. I just absolutely had such an incredible time today.

[1:35:03] DR. ELLEN: Oh, God. This was great. But I'd better get back to work.

[1:35:07] SCOTT: Yeah. Thank you so much, Dr. Cutler. I love it.

[1:35:08] DR. ELLEN: Thank you, Scott, so much. Love to talk to you again. Bye.

[1:35:11] SCOTT: Thank you. Bye-bye.


[1:35:13] SCOTT: To learn more about today's guest, visit DrEllenCutler.com. That's D-R-EllenCutler.com. DrEllenCutler.com.

Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a positive rating, or review, as doing so will help the show reach a broader audience. To follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or TikTok, you can find me there as BetterHealthGuy. If you'd like to support the show, please visit BetterHealthGuy.com/donate. To be added to my newsletter, visit BetterHealthGuy.com/newsletters. This and other episodes can be found on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Amazon Music.


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